Speaker 1: 0:03

Welcome back to You're Always Fine a space to show up for yourself and embrace the mess that lives underneath. Because, let's be real, it's exhausting always being fine. So grab your headphones and allow yourself to listen, laugh and even cry, because you are not alone. And we aren't always fine, and that's okay. And we aren't always fine, and that's okay.

Speaker 2: 0:27

How can military experience and a passion for innovation shape the future of social work? Well, today you are in for a double treat. First, let's welcome back guest host and head of public sector here at Cabana, Nick Armstrong. Nick, thanks for coming back and helping me with this episode.

Speaker 3: 0:44

Hey Christine, it's great to be back. I'm fired up for this one.

Speaker 2: 0:47

Me too. So we're excited to sit down with the Assistant Dean of the Online MSW Program, kenneth, a veteran committed to pioneering change in the mental health space. Welcome to, you're Always Fine.

Speaker 4: 1:00

Yeah, happy to be here, Christine. Thanks for having me. Hello, nick, what's going?

Speaker 3: 1:04

on Ken.

Speaker 2: 1:04

So I know that you guys know each other really well, but could you tell our listeners and myself a little bit about yourself and your work here in the mental health space?

Speaker 4: 1:15

Yeah, sure, so, yeah. So I'm the assistant dean here at Ball College of Online and Distance Education, overseeing our online graduate programs, overseeing our online graduate programs. I'm also an associate teaching professor in the School of Social Work. My journey began really in graduate school when I received a direct admission under the Health Professional Scholarship Program while I was at the University of Pennsylvania where I received my master's and clinical doctorate degree. There I did some work with veterans experiencing homelessness and also working on the VA inpatient psychiatric unit.

Speaker 4: 1:46

Post-graduation I went off to commissioned officer training with other mental health and medical providers that will be serving on active duty in the Air Force, and my work in the Department of Defense as an active duty Air Force officer and mental health provider really was comprised of three elements.

Speaker 4: 2:03

First element was traditional mental health or psychotherapy, so seeing anywhere between four to six, eight primarily active duty airmen a day, ranging from situational stressors, adjustment related issues, depression, post-traumatic stress disorder, et cetera.

Speaker 4: 2:22

Then the other element was referred to as ADAPT and that stands for Alcohol Drug Abuse Prevention and Treatment Program. So I was the element lead for that and that would be anything from a self-referral so an airman who might be experiencing some challenges with alcohol use or misuse to a medical referral from a provider in the med group or also, you know, coming from law enforcement or military, police or command-directed evaluations. For, again, a range of issues, different levels of treatment, from prevention to individual treatment, group treatment to potentially inpatient treatment, and the final element is referred to as family advocacy program and we deal with child and adult maltreatment, anything from emotional abuse, physical abuse, sexual abuse, neglect, et cetera. So, yeah, there's sort of the three elements. Obviously, military service, there's ancillary duties that continue to pop up disaster mental health response or resiliency element, or briefing commanders or new individuals to the installation sort of prevention and outreach.

Speaker 4: 3:33

I transitioned out in 2016,. Christine and I began working, moved back to the Northeast, began working at the Syracuse VA Medical Center as director of the housing and urban development VA supportive housing so sort of full circle where I started serving veteran populations, served alongside active duty members in mental health arena and then began serving veterans experiencing homelessness in upstate central New York region. And now I teach on the content here at Syracuse University, which is my course on military culture, mental health practice, and also engage in additional research and scholarship in the area.

Speaker 2: 4:10

So you know really just no experience at all, is what I heard. What about you, nick?

Speaker 3: 4:15

Well, I'm just, I'm just reflecting on the time that I first met Ken.

Speaker 3: 4:19

Maybe it must have been like right when you came over to SU. It must have been like right when you came over to SU, um were introduced by my former boss Um. And then sort of thinking about how, how, how great it's been, uh, to work with Ken um in my past role, now in in in this current, this current partnership, that we were going to talk a little bit more about Um. You know, I think we got started working a little bit around this idea of military cultural competency and like there'd been some research in the past about this being a big challenge in the broader mental health and behavioral health space and sort of watch, ken and you know, sort of work on those, work on that, specifically both from an education standpoint but also from a provider training standpoint, specifically both from an education standpoint but also from a provider training standpoint, you know. And then you know, fast forward to today, you know, working with Ken, with Cabana, and sort of bringing that into all that we do.

Speaker 2: 5:21

I'm just really excited about that partnership Before we head there. I just have one question for you, Ken, and that is because I do think, as a provider, one of like the things that I was maybe thrown into was having people who were transitioning off on my caseload because, like I just so happened to be the provider that took their insurance or maybe not the best match, but kind of their force into it. And I love this idea because it was never spoken about. I went to a great school at NYU but we never talked about the differences in population or how a subset that could need so much support, how to handle that as a provider. It's a little bit different than just rapport building or the tools that you have. So I'd just be curious if you could talk a little bit about that and kind of how you're trying to shape that space for better care for these people who put yeah, sure, great, great question.

Speaker 4: 6:11

That's what became my mission, based off of my experiences too, christine.

Speaker 4: 6:14

So I can certainly relate to that, given that you know, field education is the signature pedagogy of social work profession.

Speaker 4: 6:22

I think coupling the academic coursework with the field work is crucial to the success of the student but also, ultimately, the outcomes for the client, right, and so what I experienced um at my graduate institution, to your point, is, I had some of that field work, but as far as the content, that that was lacking, right, and there's some programming across across the U S um that touches on these areas, certainly, but that was my mission was to ultimately propose this here at Gueslake.

Speaker 4: 6:52

Here's been my experience. This is why this is important. The VA is one of the largest employers of LMSWs in the nation, if not the largest, and so we can really complement the field experiences with this work in the classroom. And so many of my students go on to work in Department of Defense, work in the VA, work in community agencies, you know, just like this, commanding some of the work that we're doing, and I think that course at least assists them in their journey. Right, and really sort of highlighting some of the work that they can do based on the skill set that they have gained here at the institution.

Speaker 2: 7:30

And it's so true. I feel like when you're going through the classes like you're like when am I ever going to use this? And then next thing you know like something in your career will just like line up just right and you're like, oh wow, I'm really glad that, like I had something in my bank to go back to. But, nick, it's been a while since you've been on the show a little over maybe not a year, anyway a while and you've been kind of hitting the ground running in our public sector and stuff. Could you explain a little bit about like partnerships and what you're trying to do and how we even got into the place where we have Kenneth on our show?

Speaker 3: 8:08

Sure. So on the public sector side, we're, you know, continuing to deepen our relationship with the VA. We've got some exciting new work supporting both, not just veterans through the Suicide Prevention Grand Challenge work, but also VA employee whole health, so providing cabanas a support to clinicians and VA staff. But, you know, additionally we're starting to launch a few partnerships with state agencies and some nonprofits. One just recently with the state of Virginia.

Speaker 3: 8:47

Their Department of Veterans Services has their own peer support function, their own peer support function, and so bringing additional partnerships to bear, like with Ken and Syracuse University, gives us additional expertise and capacity to support those engagements where they're providing services and outreach recovery support to veterans, family members, guard and Reservists across states. And so as we start to expand our access to, you know, live support groups, you know we have Ken his team to sort of tap into that. So that's really exciting to sort of build that. But also, just generally speaking, like higher ed, is a, is a, is an important, you know, aspect of our partnering. You know we want to continue to to measure and show that we're impacting the lives of others and, you know, forming partnerships with Syracuse University, you know which, you know, although I'm biased because I came from Syracuse University myself well, the best place for veterans trademark trademark, and so to have a partnership with an institution that is aligned with where we want to go as a company.

Speaker 3: 10:02

It's just a win-win.

Speaker 2: 10:04

I mean, while I did go to NYU, I will say that Syracuse is a fine university and it's in my backyard. Kenneth, from your perspective, what are your thoughts on this partnership? I mean, I think when you're in the field and you see like actual innovation happening, I know for me it's really really exciting. It's why I really loved Cabana. But just from kind of your role and where you sit, I know innovation is important to you. What do you see as like the highlights of this partnership for the work you do and then the future of the field?

Speaker 4: 10:32

Yeah, I think when Nick first we just had a brief meeting, he first went over to Cabana and you know I saw an immediate fit, right to his point Syracuse University and our strategic plan to be the best place for vets. So we have now students who are going to be able to intern with you, christine, you know at Cabana that are then also simultaneously serving veteran populations in many ways, and then also our staff, right, as Nick mentioned, some of our internship placement coordinators who are out there day in and day out will understand the field, who are working with students and also assist in some of this training support, whether that's curriculum development or even hopping on a call and moderating a session. Right, and so we're looking at this as a multifaceted partnership. Beyond continuing to sort of assess the program, right, maybe engaging some level of research around this, and I think that that's you know what a partnership is is truly all about.

Speaker 2: 11:21

I couldn't agree more. A lot of times when you see these partnerships, you see a lot of I don't know like insurance company and mental health tech company and you're like, ah, not sure like what kind of partnership that is, but to see something that I feel like in so many ways is helping so many people by two institutions coming together like this is really, really exciting. And I don't know about from your experience, but from my experience, not something I see often. You know, a lot of times I think, right, it's like you've got your veteran social work, you've got your this social work, you've got your this social work, and that can be difficult.

Speaker 4: 11:53

Yeah, for sure, I think.

Speaker 4: 11:54

On the innovation piece, what I really like, too, is that our students are going to have to be aware of the rapidly evolving technological advancements and, specifically, as it pertains to what does that mean in the behavioral and mental health space, right, and the beauty of this partnership and what you're all doing is that it truly means the client where they are.

Speaker 4: 12:12

Right, so, like, if not everything needs to be a 60 to 90 minute traditional psychotherapy session, right, so it could be focused on prevention. Right, it could be focused on, you know, some level of mindfulness. Right, you can engage in clinical work if needed on this platform, but again, the sort of, given that humans are complex and there's many nuances, right, there might be an individual who benefits from a weekly 30-minute peer support group that doesn't necessarily need to have intensive, if you will, mental health treatment, and so that's both good for the future clinicians or future, you know, direct practice professionals to know and understand how to navigate the sort of, again, innovative technological advancements and how it can be useful for their clients but also directly serving the clients as they're growing and learning throughout this experience.

Speaker 2: 13:01

It's so refreshing, though, to hear, too, like a dean at a predominant university saying that, because I feel like when I got out of school, it was like this is how you do therapy. And a lot of times I feel like a rule breaker, because I very much believe in like where this person is at and like accommodating what they need to constitute therapy, like it's my job to monitor what I'm doing and all that. But if they need a 30 session this week, like I'm not making them stay 90 minutes, I think it is such a personalized thing, and if we can bring that personalization to more people with more access, like that's just exciting.

Speaker 3: 13:32

If I could jump into the question for Ken or Christine, do you think leveraging a platform like this, like how novel is that in higher ed today, in education and training?

Speaker 4: 13:44

Yeah, well, I haven't seen too many platforms like this, nick. You know I've seen telehealth right. A lot of this could be, you know, if it's private practice could be a secure Zoom link right, especially in this half quite a bit during COVID. I know that we are doing some of this work in the VA, but I think this is a bit more unique, especially as you talk about the confidentiality and maybe you could expand on that a bit more and the anonymity right of of really low stakes being able to engage with others. You know, no fear of judgment or reprisal in any any way, and again, that might be door that opens where it's wow, that felt good to have that type of conversation and it could lead to okay, now I'm ready to maybe engage with a therapist or some group level work, whether that be again in the community or in the VA situations that we're talking about. So I think it breaks down some potential barriers that might've existed prior.

Speaker 3: 14:42

Yeah, I mean that's really the reason we exist. I mean we're all about creating private spaces for better, easier mental health access, whether it's a virtual or a physical type of environment, and sort of overcoming those stigmas through whatever features. We can meet the individual where they're at but also give them control over how much of their you know their circumstances they wanted to reveal either with a provider or amongst their peers.

Speaker 4: 15:16

Yeah, and I like how it's not sort of this like one size fits all approach, right, and you know I can see how I'm used to poking around the platform. It might be useful, you know, for myself or for an organization to use it in their own way to assist with their employees, right, and sort of positive organizational culture, while again also using it for, potentially, with their clients, and so two way street and sense of reciprocity there.

Speaker 2: 15:43

And I'm always a big believer. If I wouldn't use it, then I have no business being on here telling other people to use it. We all are going to have our days, our ups and our downs, but I want to make sure that when I'm creating content and things, it's things that I would do. Maybe not every single thing would work for me, but again, we have to use the platform because we're all just people, we're all just humans and our circumstances are going to change at different times. Additionally, I love when you said about preventative care, because we don't talk about that. We don't talk about the everyday thing you do to keep mental wellness well or to keep your mental health baseline. It's a lot about when it hits that precipice and we can do a lot before then. And I think, too, that's a huge part of access is telling people it doesn't have to get to a certain level of bad for you to invest in that practice every day.

Speaker 4: 16:34

I agree. I think you know, you might all agree with me that we're a relatively reactive society. So taking that approach early on, understanding that social support is one of the greatest protective factors, having what will sort of like wrap around services and again, this social support can come in many shapes and sizes, right. But here's another avenue for this and this platform does it. And again, many use cases, right. So I've talked with staff members here who said, oh, this would be really useful for our graduate students to get together in this forum, confidential, anonymous, not necessarily clinical work right, but just talking about their experiences and being able to support one another without having a faculty member there where they might feel they're judged.

Speaker 2: 17:18

I mean, I say that now as a provider, how am I going to handle this? To your point about, just, I think, as a graduate, right, I felt so woefully underprepared, not because of my education, but you just you're hit with something new every single day and some other way to navigate it. And I don't know if you've thought about this, but I thought about how great would it be if I had something to give like this between my sessions, like how much faster could a client who was struggling get through that struggle if they had this in-between support where I could like check in in some ways if they wanted to share with me, but also know that like they're not going to have to wait a whole week before they're like in front of me again for that traditional yeah, you know, it's like a, you know, like booster sessions in many ways, christine right, I love

Speaker 5: 17:58

that.

Speaker 4: 18:00

Having that tap into a booster session for your next appointment with your therapist. It also just allows them to continue working on themselves, right? That ultimately leads to some level of growth and change. If they're only working on themselves when they're coming to see you for 60 minutes a week, or every two weeks, or that once a month, right, then what's actually happening between sessions, right? Are we actually implementing what we're talking about? And I think, at your point, this is another use case to aid the therapist, to ultimately help client or clients.

Speaker 2: 18:33

Without burning them out too right, because I'm sure you see that a ton, I think, especially when you're just getting out and you want to do so much good in the world, it's a tough, those are tough boundaries when you have so much of people's vulnerabilities in your hand. I know I wasn't prepared, but I think more and more experiences like this that challenge us to think outside the way we've done it. Because, to your point, I think earlier in the episode you had said the Zoom or like a lot of platforms are meant for like mass therapists, right, like a portal of therapists, but not really doing anything different in the actual delivery of service, as opposed to like literally making it so you can jump on your phone.

Speaker 4: 19:14

Yeah, I think the flexibility, the you know being when it's accessible and, again, in many ways tailored to you, right? So, being able to select which group that you might fit, you know you might have some experience in or that you want to gain additional experience in, and, again, it goes two ways, right? So, if you're a provider, and you often say early in school is that it might be beneficial to see your own therapist to understand how these interactions occur, that you can then best talk to clients. Well, this is one of those opportunities, christine, where a student might be able to engage this platform to assist them with their growth as a provider.

Speaker 2: 19:51

I was so resistant to that in grad school I was like I don't need a therapist, I'm going to be a therapist. Little did I know, but they wouldn't let you graduate unless you, like you did a little Anyway. So I would highly recommend. It's so true because you know you don't realize how, like, even when it's not your stuff, how weighing it gets, and when you're faced with a lot of problems. Probably similarly to like the military, where you feel like a lot of times your hands are tied, there's only so much I can do, I can't save you from yourself.

Speaker 3: 20:17

Military, this is like mid to late 00s so 2006 to 2008, and just how we all coped with that transition and having had a tool or platform like this, I think could have been much more helpful for myself and others you know sort of overcoming the mentality of you know to more helpful uh for myself and others. You know of sort of overcoming the mentality of you know. To your point, christine, I don't need a therapist, like I'm, I'm good but sort of reflecting 10 years now, like I was very hypervigilant and just just still sought out peers, but in a different way, if there were some. Uh, just the ability to um, to reach out and connect in something I threw through through a platform where, uh, I didn't feel like I was uh bearing it all. You know pretty, pretty big.

Speaker 4: 21:21

Yeah, I would echo Nick's statement there. You know, transition can be extremely challenging. Especially it can become isolating. You're with a group of individuals that you spent a great deal of time with and been sort of challenges and adverse situations, and all of a sudden it's like, all right, you go your separate ways across the country, right? What does it mean to connect? And again, it might not necessarily need to be that individual, but someone who has a similar experience. There is power in that, there's power in connection and certainly assist in what you were talking about prevention of more severe mental health disorders. Christine.

Speaker 2: 21:54

It's interesting because obviously I'm not a vet, but I have a rare disease and one of the things that saved my life during the diagnosis period was I grew up in the age of you, did not talk to strangers.

Speaker 2: 22:04

Strangers are bad, but they became my lifeline because you look like everything's okay on the outside, right, like you're the same Nick, you're the same Ken, you're the same Christine, but everything has changed on the inside. Things are just different and I think it's really hard to explain. But when you guys are talking about it, it feels like it hits that bone inside of me of feeling like I'm drowning on my words because I don't know how to explain to you what I've experienced or what's going on. And there's a level of I think people expect you to kind of just transition right or just the version of you that they know, or it tends to be the version that they pick up on and that can be really, really, I think, isolating and alone and in general. So having that space where you can even connect or not connecting with the people who you're used to connecting to, yeah, it sounds like a similar experience.

Speaker 4: 22:49

Yeah, I think this idea that you're not alone, right, you feel again really isolating, whether it's what you were referring to what Nick's referring to, and sometimes it's actually a normal reaction to an abnormal situation.

Speaker 4: 23:00

However, you feel some sense of abnormality if those individuals around you aren't feeling that way. Right? So, bringing the collective together. There's strength in seeking help, but there's also strength in wanting to help others, right? So again, you can get to a place where, hey, I did experience this. Hey, I tried this out. Would you like to come along with me and give it a shot?

Speaker 2: 23:22

You become somebody else's survival guide in this weird way, if that's the path you choose to take. I've got one last question for you, Kenneth, and that is for people who might be listening, that may be struggling, avoiding or resistance to seeking a support like therapy or like cabana. What would be one piece of advice you would give them to like take with them?

Speaker 4: 23:41

I mean, it might just start as something as small, as like calling a friend, right, like, is there an individual, a trusted source out there that you believe has your best interest in mind, and just talking to them again, no judgment, this isn't a provider, right?

Speaker 4: 23:56

This is someone that you trust and then say, hey, well, you know there's this resource at Cabana that I was notified about. Or, to your point, I know that the VA has told me that you know there's this resource and I'm resistant, and I'm really. Or to your point, um, I know that the VA has told me that you know there's this resource and I'm resistant and really wanted to be like, okay, where's that resistance coming from, right? Um, but I think just being able to verbalize it, uh, as a first step, is important, and then also understand that, like the individuals that we talked about, the students that were training the folks in the field truly do have veterans, military populations, civilians and beyond. They're best, interested, hard and are there to help. However, if you don't come right, it's very difficult for us to help in that process, and so I guess the long and short of it is Christine, phone a friend and understand that there's a whole team of individuals that are ready to help when you're ready.

Speaker 2: 24:53

I love that so much because it is so true. My clients will often say about how, oh, I feel like I'm talking to a friend and I'm like, good, you should feel the ease and the comfort of that. And I think, too, what you said about there's so many of us out here who want to help and, you know, taking that step and, yeah, you might get someone that isn't a great fit, but try again, just because they weren't the right person for you. I think that's one of the things that COVID definitely did open up for us, which is you can find a provider that works for you, find a space that feels right.

Speaker 4: 25:26

And I think that's normal too, right, like not every individual, I mean just human dynamics in general, right, and how we gravitate towards certain individuals and things that we can relate to. So if it doesn't feel like a great fit again, that's not abnormal, it's actually normalcy to that and it's also telling you information and I think that critically evaluating, thinking about why wasn't that individual a good fit for me? And not necessarily projecting onto that individual or yourself right, but navigating. Okay, what is that? What's going on in my own life that I'm feeling this sense of way?

Speaker 2: 25:59

Exactly and being okay with. I think I don't get offended. I'd be curious if you do. But like the therapist shopping, like I'd rather you find someone that you want that are going to do the hard work. You know what I mean Then, because it will come out in our work together. Don't push yourself into a situation because you think, oh, I'm therapist shopping or I have to make this work. It's okay to take care of yourself.

Speaker 4: 26:18

Yes, great.

Speaker 2: 26:19

Nick Kenneth, thank you both so much for being on the show with me. I'm extremely excited for this partnership and also to get to work alongside both of you, creating a space that I don't think really exists yet, not only for the field, but like the future providers and the future of the field. I think that's like a really cool thing to be impacting.

Speaker 4: 26:37

Yeah, thank you, christine, excited about the partnership, and thanks for having me on.

Speaker 3: 26:40

This is great, christine. Thanks, ken, appreciate the time. I'm really excited about this as well. Great advice too.

Speaker 2: 26:48

I know we're keeping that one. That's all for this episode. Interested in today's guest or topic Text us. Use the link on the top of your show notes to text the show. We love to hear from you. We'll be back next week with a brand new episode. Until then, you're always fine.

Speaker 5: 27:03

Seriously, you're fine. You're fine because you have the power to access your place of peace anytime you need it. However, if you get stuck, we're right at the palm of your hand to help. Check out our show notes for this week's Source List, recommended Content and Cabana Live Group Schedule. We'll catch you next week for a brand new episode of You're Always Fine.