Speaker 1: 0:03

Welcome back to You're Always Fine a space to show up for yourself and embrace the mess that lives underneath. Because, let's be real, it's exhausting always being fine. So grab your headphones and allow yourself to listen, laugh and even cry, because you are not alone. And we aren't always fine, and that's okay. And we aren't always fine, and that's okay.

Speaker 2: 0:32

I truly believe that our personal struggles and experiences are the most powerful motivators for us to take action, which is exactly why our guest today is someone I am truly inspired by. It is a pleasure to introduce my guest host for the day, who happens to also be my boss, mentor and friend, heather Townsend. Heather Townsend, the co-founder of Cabana, has taken her life experience and uses it as fuel to make changes needed in the mental health field. Welcome to the show, heather, thanks.

Speaker 3: 0:54

Christine, I'm excited for our conversation today.

Speaker 2: 0:57

Deep in. Could you share with our listeners a little bit about?

Speaker 3: 0:59

yourself. Sure, I'm the COO and co-founder at Cabana. Prior to co-founding Cabana in 2020, I spent most of my professional career in e-discovery. It's a little-known field in the legal tech industry, dedicated to the process of obtaining and exch field relative to mental health, but I held a lot of roles there before starting my own company in e-discovery, where I was consulting law firms on their e-discovery and tech strategies, so I really enjoyed using technology to drive efficiencies in the legal field.

Speaker 2: 1:37

All right. So the obvious question here is how did you go from that industry and like over here to like mental health, Like what drew you to mental health? Most people try to stay away from it.

Speaker 3: 1:47

Yeah, I know it's quite the jump to go to from e-discovery to mental health. But back when I was a teenager and probably a bit younger, if I'm being honest I struggled with depression. So eventually, during that journey, I felt like I hit rock bottom of a depressive episode and I went to my mom and told her that I needed help. And I was 17 at the time and I was pretty certain that if I didn't get professional help I was probably going to kill myself. So I never told anyone that not even my therapist that I was suicidal because I didn't know if I'd get locked up or something or what would happen. And I felt like I was a normal person just struggling and didn't want to be treated any differently. So that started my journey with therapy and a lot of medications that I was on. So from there I decided I wanted to understand what was wrong with me.

Speaker 3: 2:42

So I studied psychology at the University of Vermont. I went on to do neuroscience research, kind of like, on this path of wanting to understand my depression and how to, I guess, treat it in some way outside of the therapy and medications I was prescribed. And so this was back in 2010 and no one seemed to care about mental health. A lot of my friends and family weren't really supportive or seemed like they couldn't understand what I was going through, so it felt really isolating and alone. So, finally, fast forward to April in 2020 and people started to care about mental health and talk about it more freely, and that was COVID. So I kind of jumped on the opportunity to become part of the solution for the global mental health crisis that was starting or I guess it was always there but came, I think, a little more to the forefront of the conversation. So I kind of I left eDiscovery to co-found Cabana, and that's dedicated to helping people improve their mental health.

Speaker 2: 3:42

That's a lot to experience at like such a young age. I think that to be so aware of that it's like something is happening with me, but also be aware that I'm just a person struggling. I don't want to be treated like a subset or something's wrong with me. How did that impact? I guess you? You growing up and you know, coming into adulthood.

Speaker 3: 4:04

I think that for me, you know, I felt like it was something that I would always have, forever potentially. I didn't think that there was a cure for it, which was made it a little bit more difficult for me to handle or think that like I'm going to be this way forever, which I don't think is the case anymore. But I think growing up that was kind of the mentality I had. And you know, purpose is something that's really important to me and as I've gotten older, part of me wanted to make the depression I experienced mean something, so that I wasn't the suffering and the struggling wasn't for nothing. So I felt like working in mental health was a way to put meaning behind that what I experienced in starting Cabana. So I don't know, like honestly, if that makes me better at my job as a COO at Cabana, but I can at least come from the experience side of things of understanding the difficulties of having insurance, pay for therapy or medication, switching therapists, the cost with that and that lived experience I think is really valuable.

Speaker 2: 5:20

I feel like access is something we talk a lot about and I know that that's like a big thing for us, like as a company is like talk around, like making sure there's access. Did you feel like there was a lack of access where you grew up, or did you were able to get services pretty easily?

Speaker 3: 5:36

I definitely think there was a lack of access, like I didn't know anyone that went to therapy. When I think back to high school, I don't even know how I had the awareness that I needed to go to therapy. So I don't, like, you know, google, the internet was, was there, obviously, but we, I think we just, you know like it was just the thing, yeah.

Speaker 3: 5:53

Yeah so and so I don't know, I'm not sure where that like. I even had that idea, maybe because I knew. Obviously I knew of therapy, Maybe I've probably saw in a movie or something, to be honest. So I think access was hard. I was from like a poor rural town area so while other kids were like I guess in other communities were like taking Adderall and going to doctors and prescribe that no one I knew was like was prescribed anything like that or ever seen a mental health professional. So I think where I was was particularly isolating, but I did. I was able to find a therapist that was somewhat, you know, nearby where I was.

Speaker 2: 6:35

So there's also a ton of research that has like come out recently about the strong link between, like depression and perfectionism, and is that something you experience I mean you're building something from the ground up which feels also like there's like a lot of expectation, like especially if you've like experienced what you're trying to solve for that feels like it could be a lot.

Speaker 3: 6:55

Yeah, I mean, I don't know much about the research around perfectionism, but I've called myself a recovering perfectionist, so I do think it could be related and you know, I haven't honestly looked closely so high that it can probably lead to feeling depressed, right, feeling not worthy enough, right, yeah, like.

Speaker 3: 7:13

So I think that I definitely think that's like probably related when I was I think it was fourth grade and I got a 99 on a test and I cried uncontrollably because I wasn't 100. So this was deep-rooted and it was like even 99 wasn't good enough, it had to be perfect. So I definitely know that I have tendencies toward perfectionism, but I don't hold other people to those standards thankfully, because I would be a terrible, tolerable manager if I did, or just a person to be around or in a relationship with. But I know for myself personally I have like that high standard.

Speaker 2: 8:07

Well, most of the time, right, Like we tend to treat people or like outwardly much more kindly than we are to ourselves. Ok, so let's let's focus a little bit on cabana now, because I'm curious, like if you were that 17-year-old girl again and in high school and there was a Cabana, do you think that would have been helpful, having something like Cabana?

Speaker 3: 8:41

I think a lot of it is the timing, like the conversation on mental health just wasn't had for 15 years ago, like you know. So I think that there's a timing thing that people have to be ready for that conversation. So as a society, and so I do think that having that would have been helpful, because therapy can be intimidating, right, it's expensive insurance at least as far as all the different insurance cures I've had never have covered it, or at least therapists I've seen in network. So we're in network, and so I think having like an affordable resource or something that just like maybe a little less intimidating than therapy would definitely be helpful. So, yeah, I think having like an affordable resource or something that just like maybe a little less intimidating than therapy would definitely be helpful. So, yeah, I think that would that definitely would have helped.

Speaker 2: 9:26

How do you think we continue the conversation Right? Because, like I think, for as far as we've come, it's still a conversation that a lot of us struggle with, to share with our employers. I mean, I think it's a little different for us. We work at a mental health company, so it's like if you say you need a med, like if you need a day off, like for your mental health, it's different. But you know corporate America or you know um even like you know some other types of jobs I think of, like retail right. Like if you were like I can't, like my mental health is really shit today, like I can't come in, I feel like that wouldn't be really accepted. It's like, how do you think we continue to break those barriers down?

Speaker 3: 10:04

Like at the corporate level, I think it starts with the leaders, right, or an upper management of organizations for sure, like and that's what research can you know I'm calling like air quotes research, but that's what the trend is is that if it's leaders are open about it and upper management and saying that it's okay and demonstrating it themselves, like if they say, sure, take a mental health break, but never talk about mental health themselves, the rest of the organization is going to be like, are they really serious about that? So it definitely starts with the upper management taking the first step to talk about their mental health and I think that starts to change the culture and make it okay for others, like creates that psychological safety for others to then take that mental health day once they see the leadership doing that.

Speaker 2: 10:54

I think that's something that you actually do a really great job as a manager and like a COO, of doing like I feel like you're very open and honest, like how do you build up, I guess right, like that's a very vulnerable thing. I think, as a woman in tech, as a woman founder, like to be able to, you know, quote unquote I don't, I don't think it's a weakness. I think vulnerability is power. But you know, how did you find the strength to like, know that that was the type of leader you were going to be, or to make that decision, to share, even when you know it could make you look?

Speaker 3: 11:27

Yeah, that's a great question of where, like, my vulnerability comes from. I think I've always been somewhat of an honest or blunt person, for better or for worse. I think there's times that it can be a bad thing of being a little too honest. So I think some of it comes from just my tendency to speak what's on my mind and not sugarcoat things and maybe you can attest that I don't really sugarcoat things, I do not sugarcoat things. So I think part of that is is the honesty.

Speaker 3: 12:02

But if I didn't have that, maybe, trait and I still think people can be honest and, when it comes to their personal struggles, try to come off a certain way and I think for me I can relate back to my depression that I had when I was younger and I don't think I was always vulnerable about it. I did hide it Like I did try to cover it up. So I think part of it came with you. I didn't help anyone by covering it up, you know, or hiding it. I didn't me not talking about it didn't make me feel better, but it didn't doesn't help anyone else feel better. So I think at some point it was. You know, if I want to make an impact in this industry, which I do I have to be part of the solution.

Speaker 3: 12:53

I have to start with talking about my story and I think when we first started I didn't bring up my personal story like ever it's been. I've been talking about it for the past four years. That makes me more comfortable to even be here talking about it. Otherwise, if you said four years ago, it would have been much harder for me and maybe come off a little different. So I think part of it is practice and, yeah, whether that's writing about it, talking to others about it, it just comes with reps. I think some of the vulnerability and you know, one thing I think about is like if you're struggling alone, you don't win any prizes for overcoming things alone. Like that doesn't so true. Yeah, you know, like that's like you said, you can struggle alone if you want to, if that's like how you want to overcome it, but you're not going to, like life doesn't hand out any prize.

Speaker 2: 13:39

Like good job you did this all by yourself like yeah, like you're, you guessed, you know.

Speaker 3: 13:44

So I think that's just something I think about and I think just others should think about when, like what, like a reason to like, seek help so this is obviously such a different version of you than your 17 year old version.

Speaker 2: 13:59

If you could go back, though, and tell 17 year old version of Heather something, what would?

Speaker 3: 14:05

Yeah, I think I would tell myself that you'll be okay and that things will get better, and I would definitely tell myself that you know you're more capable than you think you are, so don't doubt yourself. I think when you're younger, you kind of like oh, I'm not an adult, I don't know anything, and maybe you're treated that way. But I think that should be so far from the truth, because as a young age, we are quite capable and that self-doubt I think that we have is what's holding us back, yeah, yeah, and perpetuates into adulthood A hundred percent.

Speaker 2: 14:40

I couldn't agree more. It's like the messages we tell ourselves whether it be because we are young or whatever have you a hundred percent becomes a narrative that we continue like way into adulthood. So what would you tell our listeners who may be struggling to like start their mental health journey, like how can one cabana help with that and how can you like take the first step, like you did, at such a young age, to like ask for help?

Speaker 3: 15:08

Yeah, I mean, I think seeking help is not a sign of weakness, it's a sign of strength. As humans, we are like a social species, so we're not meant to do life alone and I think this is an example. So if you are struggling, it's reaching out to friends, if that's the appropriate mean. But your friends aren't therapists generally, except you, yeah, but in the context of this your friends aren't therapists. Sometimes they are, but likely not.

Speaker 3: 15:39

So there are a lot of resources now and I think you know, and obviously Google is I don't want to say Google definitely don't WebMD your symptoms, but there's, you know, looking for therapists. There's a lot of resources out there on the internet that you can find, like Cabana right, we're offered to like through employers and now somewhat outside of employers, and I think that's great way to get support, especially if you're need something outside of just one-on-one therapy that's you know, to supplement your current mental health practice, um also discovering other skills, um around self-awareness, managing your emotions so you know you can connect with a coach on there or a therapist or others who are experiencing the same thing, which I think is great to help you feel like less alone because you're.

Speaker 3: 16:26

You know there's definitely other people out there feeling the way you are you. Just because we don't talk about it enough that it seems more isolating than it really is.

Speaker 2: 16:36

I agree and I think also, sometimes it's not as easy to talk to our friends and family who, like, have all the contacts. Sometimes it's like easier to talk to people who are just going to talk about like that one thing right, like the one thing you're struggling with, as opposed to like I don't know, like knowing the whole back. Sometimes it's not great when everyone knows everything about you. It can feel limiting.

Speaker 3: 16:57

Yeah, yeah, I think yeah, there is definitely a concept too of oversharing that you don't always want to be a practice of. There's a balance in who you can share certain things with. I'm sure in high school it's much different who you share things with. It can be maybe dangerous, right, but I think that's why I tell myself you'll be okay, like high school is only high school, it doesn't last like that forever.

Speaker 2: 17:21

It's not forever. Sometimes you go back to middle school as adults I feel like with, like random things, I'm like, oh my God, but that's just poor human behavior. Like with like random things, I'm like, oh my God, but that's just poor human behavior. Yes, heather, before we go each week, you know, I give our listeners a little balance to want to take with them, and this week I would love for you to do the honors and give our listeners maybe a tool that kind of you go to to ground yourself or to stop the negative talk spiral that happens, or maybe a little perfectionism tip sure um, I think for like what helps with like perfectionism, um, really is learning a new language.

Speaker 3: 17:59

So that sounds like a lot, but there are like plenty of free apps out there that make it easy. Like I use duolingo um to practice spanish, and so if you're a perfectionist like me, it'll be a little nerve wracking to get something wrong, but exposure to like being wrong is exactly, I think, what you need and like failing sometimes. So I definitely recommend learning a new language because it does have. It has amazing benefits for your brain too and long-term impacts, even when you're an adult learning it.

Speaker 2: 18:32

Well, I love learning, but I am not a linguist, like I've learned this about myself. I, as you know, barely have English language down, so does it have to be a language? Or could you like learn code or sign language or something that's like not going to also torture?

Speaker 3: 18:47

you. Yeah, learning a new hobby has a lot of benefits for you, so it doesn't have to be a language. I I like the language learning. It can help me also stop ruminating and it's on my phone, right, so that can make it easy and accessible. Um, but for sure, if it's coding is your thing, if it's going to a new exercise, like different type of exercise class rock climbing is something I started picking up. So definitely, learning new hobbies are a great way to overcome perfectionism and, you know, be okay with being bad at something. I think it's really helpful.

Speaker 2: 19:21

I love that so much. It makes me think that I should continue to do the fitness like plus on Apple, like the five minute yoga. I swear I feel like such a fool for those entire five minutes, but I'm going to keep doing it because I need to build some strength against my perfectionism. Go ahead, heather. Thank you so much for taking the time out of your day to come and chat with us. I think your vulnerability and ability to share your story and struggles is such a superpower and one of the reasons Cabana has seen the success and helped as many as it has and makes you such a good boss.

Speaker 3: 19:53

Thank you, christine, you're awesome.

Speaker 2: 19:58

Some days. That's all for today. Peeps, If you've enjoyed this episode, please go ahead, follow the podcast and leave us a review. Your support helps us to continue to normalize the conversation around the invisible struggles we all face. Until next time, mind your health.

Speaker 4: 20:14

Seriously, you're fine. You're fine because you have the power to access your place of peace anytime you need it. However, if you get stuck, we're right at the palm of your hand to help. Check out our show notes for this week's source list, recommended content and Cabana live group schedule. We'll catch you next week for a brand new episode of You're Always Fine.