Mapping the new terrain of mental health | Part 2

Speaker 1: 0:03

Welcome back to You're Always Fine a space to show up for yourself and embrace the mess that lives underneath. Because, let's be real, it's exhausting always being fine. So grab your headphones and allow yourself to listen, laugh and even cry, Because you are not alone. And we aren't always fine, and that's okay.

Speaker 2: 0:26

We are back for part two of my interview with David Black, founder and CEO of Kabatim, a mental health app that is shaking up the way we view and access mental health support. I'm your host, christine, and if you haven't listened to part one, I highly recommend you hit pause here and go listen to that episode. Trust me, it's worth it. If you're all caught up, then let's dive right back in.

Speaker 3: 0:51

I'm going to go on my little clinical high horse here. I talk about this a lot and that is mental health is not a destination, point blank period, even in just right, just by way of you, being able to push off grief for a year shows you that it's not a destination. And another thing I don't believe the traditional system does well is creating what is mental health maintenance? Right, we have 16 week crisis, we have illness management, et cetera, but we have no. How do you check in when you don't have right? I barely can find an hour and I'm a therapist and I know that you know, shoot most some mornings.

Speaker 3: 1:28

I am so mad at myself because I think that whatever I have to do for work is more important than the five minutes I spend journaling. You know so, we know how hard it is. So how do we help and foster this idea of like mental? It's an everyday, it's a maintenance, it's you know like what. And it's going to look different for everyone. You know, after I get done with some, you know my COVID caseload right now. Interestingly, it's coming to the point where I'm seeing most of them either monthly or bimonthly for their, you know, and we're communicating in between a little bit. But again, as a therapist, it would be great if I had a more formalized way to manage that maintenance. That's something I've adopted in my practice and, honestly, if I didn't have this opportunity, I couldn't do that, because I need those spots to make my paycheck. So I get why the profession hasn't molded to that, but it's, you know, something we talk about. So I'd just like to know your, like your thoughts of that. Mental health maintenance.

Speaker 4: 2:33

Corey Keyes is a researcher out of Emory university who has been doing a lot of work on the mental health continuum, this model that now catches individuals sooner, and he has a TED talk where he states we park ambulances at the bottoms of cliffs and that is our healthcare model. We are really good when someone falls off at grabbing them, fixing them and repairing them. We're not good at stopping them before they go off the cliff. And so why do we not stop people? Are we not designed to stop? Some of it is the payment models focus on episodic and so we're improving in that with value-based care and initiatives there, but some of it is also just the convenience.

Speaker 4: 3:18

Are we designed to meet people where they are? Are you building something to catch that person when they have a few minutes in their commute, when they're in the car to work on themselves? Are you giving someone an entertaining option when they're looking for a distraction, when they're doom scrolling, but they don't want to feel the doom of it, but they need something that entertains them? Are we designing solutions to catch people at the moment where they're ready to engage? Because our our competitors for our time and our investment are our netflix it's. You know, maladaptive activities. It's, it's drinking.

Speaker 3: 3:53

I mean it's also right, it's a lot of self-indulgence as opposed to like right and being like well, I deserve it because you know I work so hard it's and you know I mean we're seeing. Also, I don't know if you've seen the numbers around revenge, sleep time, procrastination, where it's like you grind all day long and then you stay up until basically four o'clock in the morning, which we all know is not good for anything Because again, there was no taking a rest or a five minute. You know again, and it's also about intentionality, right, I feel like poop when I get 15 minutes late to my therapy session because I was held up in doing therapy for someone right, as opposed to creating stuff that I have five minutes and this will be five minutes, not like I'm going to stop and then I'm going to feel guilty because I didn't invest in my like. You know what I mean. There's subtle messages that happen when we create that structure because I didn't invest in my. You know what I mean. There's subtle messages that happen when we create that structure.

Speaker 4: 4:45

Yeah, the Amazon and other consumer-focused companies that have made it possible for us to get most anything delivered to our doorstep. There is a common conventional thinking that the experiences you spend the most time with influence and set your expectation for what you expect all other services or all other experiences to be dictated around, and convenience trumps all at this stage right now for us as a society. So the expectation that I need something that is quick and convenient for me, despite the clinical benefits of that longer period of time in the best we.

Speaker 4: 5:29

this is a a balance that the mental health industry is going to have to grapple with, uh, where the the therapist knows that six session, that eight session is going to have some value for you, but the individual is looking for the quick fix because they can get that Well right, exactly, social media, or like.

Speaker 3: 5:49

I mean, I remember when the first time you approached me and you're like, okay, I love everything you did with the balance. Now I need you to make it into 22nd. I'm like, I look, I was like he's kidding, right, like there's gotta be a joke where you think, um, again. Another, though, barrier I put up for myself, because I think we put out amazing content for in very short clips of it. You know, our moments are some of my favorite things to make, but it requires, of course, like me, to think about, okay, if you don't have the luxury of the long way, what you know, what are the key gems? I mean that's I think it's what you actually said to me.

Speaker 3: 6:28

You're like, you know I want the aha moments and I was like I can't just manifest aha moments, but you can. You know, like you know you can put yourself in enough. You know I've been doing it for 15 years. It's just a matter of again, stop siloing every client as a different, you know, and start like, okay, what are my themes? Like, what are the aha moments of? You know this? Like you know, as close as you can get. Of course, every experience is unique, but again, I think it's the difference between that shared connection, a pile of things, as opposed to stuff blowing it off.

Speaker 4: 6:58

Yeah, I mean, there's so much that can be learned from just raising someone's self-awareness. That can be learned from just raising someone's self-awareness If we look at the low hanging for all of us from a mental health perspective, it's improving our awareness of the biases that influence our thinking, our logical side, as well as the labels that define how we're feeling or how we're communicating.

Speaker 3: 7:24

I couldn't agree more with the statement.

Speaker 2: 7:28

I say to my clients all the time.

Speaker 3: 7:29

David, that's exactly what I say. They're like okay, I'm aware of it, now what? And in my head I'm like, oh, now it's on you, right, you have a series of decisions and stuff to make, because you can't unsee these things, but getting it from your subconscious up. To me, that's actually where the bulk of the work is. So I could not agree with you more. But does it have to be that deep, dark, subconscious work to get there? Yeah, when you're on the edge of a cliff maybe, but if we start a little sooner in baby steps, maybe not.

Speaker 4: 8:00

If we start a little sooner, then good can be done. And so if we're trying to really reach people earlier, then we have to realize that they're not thinking. Someone is not thinking where do I go to find a therapist? I'm looking for a therapist. That's not the problem someone's trying to solve. They're trying to spend time in a way that's helpful for them, that gives them maybe a break when they have that time helps take away something that is causing them time or stress. It's not adding to their experience. And you cannot reach people earlier in our busy lives without acknowledging that you're competing with something that has nothing to do with mental health in general for their time.

Speaker 3: 8:41

But you make such a great point when you just said that because you know when you're like they're not looking. Point, when you just said that because you know when you're like they're not looking. 100%. No, but I'll take, you know, a text I got from the other day, from a client you know she essentially was just like I have to bring up with my, like my boyfriend. He's caused me too much anxiety, right, she has anxious attachment style and so going on TikTok and and happen to scan on something that makes you feel seen, because it's like you know you're not a bad girlfriend because you don't let your boyfriend go out, it's your anxious, it's like you know what I mean. Like something like that makes you feel seen, it takes the pain point away and then, like you said, it alleviates. Um, and that's what we're competing in. So I right, it's, it's it's kind of circling back to that plane ride. We're competing for connection and again what I think what people hate their therapist or love their therapist and it, and it's one thing, how they connect with them.

Speaker 4: 9:40

Yep Groups. I'm a big believer in groups and the power of group-based support because so much that you see when individuals who've gone through group therapy, whether it's psychotherapy or just support in general. But if you look at Yalom's work around this, there's research on why people really like groups and one of the biggest reasons that people get I think 65 reasons is the ability to discover and accept something about yourself that you didn't previously know. And what helps that discovery is getting to see an insight that someone else has gained that you can connect with and realize that's actually a mirror image of myself. And then the acceptance part is you've now seen that you're not the only one feeling that way and the go through that journey is so powerful. And the reality is hyper-convenient life and everything that we design on hyper-convenience makes it tough to get to those moments of clarity so quickly. And that is, I won't say, the fun challenge, but that is the necessary challenge for us to solve Is you know, we cannot stop this world of consumer convenience.

Speaker 4: 10:57

We can design within it, and that's something important.

Speaker 3: 11:01

What you just said. I always talk about how the first year in grad school like it saved my life because again, I was going through I didn't even know I was going through a struggle. Honestly, hyper-perfection, like there's so many ways mental health shows up and stuff, so like I didn't even you know, at the time I wouldn't have been like, oh you're like. Now it's like, oh wow, you were so unwell.

Speaker 3: 11:19

But I remember my teacher was teaching about enmeshment in my family structure class and she was not talking to me, she was not doing therapy, we were learning like straight up learning therapy and she said it and the discussion that was happening again third party to it was it was a group setting but it allowed me to think of my problem or like what was happening in my life, without it being so threatening because we weren't talking about me, we were talking in a group. You know they kind of just a light bulb just went off for me, um, and our work. You know about how that's one of the huge powers I don't think it's talked about enough is that you can almost like watching a movie in a way listen to somebody's story, connect, do all this mental math in your head around it to help you see what you couldn't see before.

Speaker 4: 12:09

Yeah, well, just think of how you felt the emotional power that you get from a movie or, specifically, a Taylor Swift song. When you think of music and just the emotive powers that come from the arts. It's the validation we get from an artist who knew what was in our head when they came up with the lyrics for that song, or a creator and they wrote a storyline that we can all see ourselves in. There is healing power in the validation that we get all see ourselves in there. There is healing power in in the validation that we get through those experiences and in the outlets we get from that.

Speaker 4: 12:46

Um, and it's, I think, going back to kind of the spaces you've heard of individuals that cry more often on planes than anywhere else. And and why is that? You know what? Why do people feel the emotions of certain experiences that they have? And I think there's something powerful there when we look at the experiences that we fit into our lives, where we feel comfortable, where we feel greater levels of self-disclosure or Seen right, because where do we feel seen Seen?

Speaker 4: 13:18

right, because where do we feel seen? No-transcript. So it's a long task list for the next few years. What greater way to spend your time, though, professionally or personally?

Speaker 3: 13:52

I mean I couldn't agree more I say I get all the best aspects.

Speaker 4: 14:01

Yeah Mantra this year upgrade your problems.

Speaker 3: 14:02

So let's solve problems and then earn the right to solve some more. I love that. Before I let you go, though, I want to quickly just, we were talking about imposter syndrome and I know for me, when I came to the tech side I had a. I was like I do not belong in this seat, like I'm one little lonely therapist who you know. Again, I've been given so many wonderful tools to go in and kind of build that confidence and now I feel like my seat is well justified, but, um, they're always hearing from me and how I would kind of what my take home tool would be. So, sitting from your seat, when you know in all your different ladders, how do you what's your advice for imposter syndrome or your like quick tool to how you, you know, breathe and go into another meeting, when you know like the odds are stacked against you or maybe you're not, you don't feel like you have space in that room.

Speaker 4: 14:49

Yeah, I, I think so. There are two things that I do that have been helpful. One's more recent, but the first is it is lonely in this world where you're an entrepreneur and trying to navigate challenges, and so finding others that can validate your thinking, your doubts and those pieces I find helpful, just to know I'm not the only one thinking about that. So, just raising myself, whereas that I'm, I'm waking myself up, I'm in my own head about something, the way I do that is I listened to a ton of of podcasts, in particular, uh, podcast for entrepreneurs any, any story of someone that's had to do a hard thing or had to go through adversity, even if they're not an entrepreneur I'm interested in and I've found a lot from the how I built this, because it's people that have done great things who are still just people, and I have to remind myself about that. If you're passionate about a problem and you are humble about what you can do in that and what you can't do, then you can find others that are just as passionate, that fill in those gaps. So for me, it's learning how others have gone through experiences, and when I have a doubt about myself in a role, I listen to a leader that's been through a challenge before. If I have a doubt about am I solving something as a, not being a clinician, I just want to get smart enough to know if I'm asking the right question.

Speaker 4: 16:24

So there's that piece of just trying to listen from others that helps me, um, in that there's also this piece that I didn't realize it was really connected to him imposter syndrome, but it's the it's kind of never pausing to acknowledge what you've accomplished or things that have been powerful for you.

Speaker 4: 16:43

It's sort of just writing it off Like we're not, not good enough or not not there yet. And, um, this is something that I I don't know that I see it as imposter syndrome, but I think I do hear too many of us doing it and I'm guilty of it see it as imposter syndrome, but I think I do hear too many of us doing it and I'm guilty of it. And it's if someone gives you a compliment and it could be even if I, you know, I like your shoes, you know, or something like that. It is this pattern of saying, oh, these old things like they're just, you know, hand-me-downs, and when the reality is that sets in motion, when the reality is that sets in motion this imposter syndrome, this self-doubt of I'm not good, you nailed it.

Speaker 4: 17:27

So I've started and I'm working on this, but if someone gives me a compliment and I don't want to sound obnoxious in this I don't think anyone does, but but I acknowledge them. I say thank you, that comment made my day. You know that I hadn't heard something does, but I acknowledge them. I say thank you, that comment made my day. You know that I hadn't heard something like that before, or I really. You just made me smile and I appreciate you for saying that. You know just.

Speaker 3: 17:46

It sets a different cycle.

Speaker 4: 17:49

It does.

Speaker 3: 17:49

Yeah, I mean those habits and they are your wins right, like they are your like, even if all you got was to this point. There was a ton of trailblazing there, so you know what, like it is not you right. I think that's part of the feet on the floor, head in the sky, heart in the middle type of thing where it's like you can say like yeah, this was a, this was a huge win.

Speaker 4: 18:11

I hope that's not the last one I get Right no-transcript, but it is important for you to stop and acknowledge the person next to you, saying what an amazing view. Right now, and all too often, if you're just so focused and saying we're not done there yet, that's not good and I think more just tactically, if you don't train yourself to appreciate those little moments, it has a ripple effect in it and, like you said, I think, presence too right, like it's the difference between letting a cycle start of negative self-talk and imposter and doubt, or being present enough to be like somebody noticed.

Speaker 3: 19:17

You know and it's funny that you said that, because I often think this about the podcast, you know, and every once in a while you'll drop in and be like hey, I listened to this episode and you know you're like, yeah, your boss listened or whatever. But then you'll pull out a line or something and I'm like man, like you know again, like, and I do, I feel this overwhelming amount of gratitude that you just stop for a second because you don't know what I deal with behind the mic and just like, as a CEO, I can empathize, right, but you know those, those are our own battles to kind of climb. And again, I think, with all the work we're doing by opening that little door or finding another door in, you know, that's those small baby steps of catching someone before the cliff.

Speaker 4: 20:01

Yeah, it is the iceberg analogy, like we we'd only see what someone wants us to see, what they're going through. We all deal with so much more out of the surface, and it's I. I know how busy we get, how hard it is, so I'm always interested in little things that I can remember to do. Now we can call it atomic habits, but what are those little steps that will have positive or negative implications, cause I'm going to keep doing them. So what are the little changes that we can make? I love that If you're not doing it positively.

Speaker 3: 20:37

it's positively. It's either neutral, which to me stagnancy is like the word, or you're actively working against yourself. I love that You're right, because either way it's going to be something.

Speaker 4: 20:46

If someone gives you a compliment accept it. Yeah.

Speaker 3: 20:50

I love that one. I'm going to have to make that into a moment or something to get on the app. Well, let's see how well he does. Guys, I will say, david, thank you so much for being here and again, thank you on behalf of the entire. Obviously I'm sure everyone's got their own David in their story, but my whole career was changed by you breaking me out of my box.

Speaker 3: 21:10

Whatever happens next, I can't go back into that box and the one word I think, what I think of you, heather and Cabana, is innovation, and I don't know that word was ever on like a word that I value, the way I value it now and how much I've watched myself as a person, professional and as a small business owner, just by introducing like that word is very, in my opinion, powerful. It gives you a lot of control. So, you know, thank you for you know, choosing the harder path or choosing, you know, a way to do something. It's not easy to be the person that's going to do something differently, and I see that and value that. So you know, thank you.

Speaker 4: 21:49

Well, you just made me blush. Thank you, I appreciate it.

Speaker 3: 21:55

We'll be back next week with a brand new episode of You're Always Fine.

Speaker 1: 22:02

Until then, mind your health. Seriously, you're fine. You're fine because you have the power to access your place of peace anytime you need it. However, if you get stuck, we're right at the palm of your hand to help. Check out our show notes for this week's source list, recommended content and Cabana live group schedule. We'll catch you next week for a brand new episode of You're Always Fine.