Speaker 1: 0:03

Welcome back to You're Always Fine a space to show up for yourself and embrace the mess that lives underneath. Because, let's be real, it's exhausting always being fine. So grab your headphones and allow yourself to listen, laugh and even cry, because you are not alone. And we aren't always fine, and that's okay. And we aren't always fine, and that's okay.

Speaker 2: 0:31

In late 2021, I was working remotely as a therapist and facing problems most of us do in the profession High caseloads, no resources for clients who need more than that one hour a week, and the unfortunate storyline of mental health in America today, we all know it too well. I was frustrated one night so I was doomscrolling Now don't judge, I doomscroll LinkedIn. That's when I found a job listing for the head of mental wellness at Cabana, and while easy apply is always a great incentive, what caught my attention was their tagline the new front door of mental health. I'm your host, Christine, and today I'm excited to finally welcome David Black, the founder CEO of Cabana and my boss. Let's get into it, David. Welcome to. You're Always Fine.

Speaker 3: 1:13

Hey, Christine, Thanks for having me. I'm excited to get to share a little bit chat with you.

Speaker 2: 1:21

So there's a lot to get into today, but one thing I know for sure about business is that the ones that succeed there's always a strong why. So let's go ahead and rewind back to 2019., and could you share with us what was happening in that time in your life?

Speaker 3: 1:38

Sure, so I will. If we're going to go in a way back machine, I'll wind back even further to 2017. So my background's, all healthcare. I took a role actually back in 2016, working at Johns Hopkins Medicine and wound up in insurance of all places, which I didn't expect my career path to take me there, but I was doing work for all sorts of populations Medicare Advantage, employers and just really learning about how we pay for healthcare in the US market. I also, when I started at Hopkins back in 2016, actually lost my dad to a late-stage cancer diagnosis and it was about three months time of notice, which, from a silver lining perspective, was great because I had a chance to spend time with him, work through challenges, have those meaningful conversations that not everybody gets, but I didn't talk with anyone about that. So in 2016 into 2017, in that year I started a grad school program while working full time. I got promoted and so I had a bigger role, managing a bigger team, and then my second son, colin, was actually born in October of 2017. And so I was.

Speaker 3: 3:01

I was busy, staying busy, and just didn't realize that I hadn't talked to anyone actually about my dad. I just kind of processed that challenge as part of life's journey, and I found myself in November, into November, after Thanksgiving, which was just about the anniversary from when my dad passed. I was on a flight for work and I sat next to a stranger on the plane who was headed to his dad's funeral and it had been the anniversary and so I shared. I'd actually lost my dad and we start talking just two strangers on a plane and I realized that his dad had passed for the exact same cancer that I'd lost my dad to, and very quickly that just'd lost my dad to, and very quickly. That just accelerated the discussion for us.

Speaker 3: 3:49

And we spent the rest of the flight talking about what it was like. I kind of felt like I'd found someone just by the stars aligning, who was on a similar path as me but was just at a different point in it. And I walked off that flight realizing I hadn't talked to anyone about it and kind of surprised for myself that I hadn't done that, but also how much I needed that, how much value I found talking to someone who was going through a similar experience as me. And I kept thinking about two things after that flight. One was how amazing was it that I just stars aligned. I sat next to a person who's going through something similar and also, what made me feel comfortable the fact that it went from two strangers on a plane to a really deep conversation really quickly was pretty powerful for me.

Speaker 2: 4:41

Can I ask a quick question? Um at the time as you're processing this, you know, and trying to get to like the why did you? Um, also kind of reflective, like, like, were you actively against it, or was it more like a subconscious, like I haven't talked to someone and like the days become months, become years, or, um, was there like a resistance you didn't know and then that became comfortable for some reason?

Speaker 3: 5:08

Yeah, I don't know if I've. I definitely haven't thought of it that way. I know that it didn't hit me until after that flight happened that I realized I hadn't really talked to anyone about it. I'd had friends or family express the I'm so sorry for you, but my response when I got that comment was, to an extent, I appreciate it, thank you, but you haven't been there. So it was this kind of just numbness of feeling like my experience was really unique and not not having someone that was a friend that I could relate to.

Speaker 3: 5:46

Um, I had family members, but just the kind of nuance of where I was in my career. It just didn't feel as relatable to me. Um, so I didn't, I didn't talk about it. I really only noticed it after that, when I would do these rides home from work and the commute was when I'd always call my dad and that was just an empty space. So I had these moments where I was just thinking and so I reflected after the flight of oh gosh, those were lonely points in the time where I felt the void in my life more than any other time.

Speaker 2: 6:19

You know, I'm smiling right now because we've worked together for two years and I build the content here and we've talked often about this commute time, commute meditation and stuff. And it wasn't until this moment and I've heard this story a few times and it wasn't until this moment where I'm like, oh my gosh, like that's like part of the onion of like when you're asked when we talk about doing things in commute time, because you're right, the car is a huge like void. Anyway, just a moment for me to kind of connect it and be like wow, he's not just saying that because, like you know, the data says that, but that's like a personal point of why it's probably important to you, to you know, I think you've recorded like a commute meditation and stuff.

Speaker 3: 6:55

anyway, just a moment that I was like wow, that's well, yeah, I think the kind of fast forward here is I got off that plane and then a week later at work was looking at a statistic that people take a long time to seek support and the number didn't feel believable to me. It was 11 years on average. And after that flight it made more sense to me because I realized I'd been going a year without actually doing anything. Having those kind of empty rides where I was would have benefited from having some level of support, but wasn't. I wasn't going to raise my hand in a room and say I need to talk to a therapist and right, wrong or indifferent, it just the convenience factor of it as well as just the self-reliance factor. I'm stubborn. I try to do house projects before hiring a professional for it. That's worked in some areas and I've gotten dirty or shocked in other areas.

Speaker 2: 7:55

It's, it's that table incident when we set up the office too. Can't let you go on that one, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3: 8:02

So you know, the reality is I realized that I was part of that statistic and, um, just the kind of stars aligned for me on a couple levels where I had that personal experience that connected me to a why, which is too few folks seek support soon enough, and and and for practical reasons, comfort and convenience.

Speaker 2: 8:26

And I think you know everything you were talking about when you were saying what was going on in your life, right, I don't think anyone, right, like our brains are wired to protect us. Just, you know, to like keep the status quo. So you had a lot of things to occupy, you were pulled in a bunch of different areas that made it easy to realize like, oh wow, it feels like it was yesterday, but it was a year ago, you know, and I think there's no shortage of excuses.

Speaker 2: 8:50

Yes, exactly Just being a dad of two, I mean, and a husband, and you know, a career is a lot. And you know, I think you bring up a great point too that we don't really talk about a lot, which is we have this expectation, right, that if we have a close family or we have a good marriage there, that's the person you tell everything to and you talk to that person and unfortunately that's that's not the case. That's like that's not a death, like, yes, you need good communication in the, in the unit, but your marriage isn't defined by you going to your wife and talking to her about the grief you're experiencing, or not, right, every microcosm has its own dynamic and, um, you know, I find it personally hard when I'm with my own therapist so I've been with for years now to say what I want to say or get it out Like it's just not. You know, we all struggle with that, that vulnerability, even in the safest places that's. You know my therapist always laughs because I always do my therapy in the car. She's like but no one's there.

Speaker 2: 9:50

I'm like, yes, however, it just for whatever reason, that that feels like, you know, safe, and so I think it's easy to be like oh, you have a great support system, but again that's that you're hitting on, you know, is shared connection, in which, again, there was an ease to be on the same plane at the same time, in the same moment, that you know that vulnerability like whatever that vulnerability did or whatever that path was forged for you for the next three hours so many things could have gone wrong. He puts his headphones in before he says am I sitting here? And the whole thing changes. And so I think that's one of the when I hear I'm not surprised at all about that 11 year statistic, I think, again, part of that is because it's like, oh well, something must be really wrong if I can't talk to my super supportive wife or my brother or and that's not really the case of you know.

Speaker 3: 11:00

I would say I fell probably in that languishing to moderate well-being spectrum where I may not have met a clinical diagnosis at that moment, but I was having ups and downs and it just something about that plane made it comfortable for me. I've been spending a lot of time since then thinking about social networks, the type of support that we get, who we get that from, and there's a concept of weak tie versus strong tie networks and I think we've talked about this a little bit. The spouse is that strong tie network but there's a lot of value we get from strong tie but there's also a tremendous amount of value that we get from weak tie networks, these in-passing interactions that we have with strangers, where we can control what we're sharing, how we're sharing. In that and it's not a everything that happens in Vegas stays in Vegas type of experience. It's just an element of I can find more transactional level support from someone and I can ask questions that don't have a ripple effect into my whole relationship or persona.

Speaker 3: 12:09

I'm not ruining my friendships by raising questions you're going to maybe read too much into when it's just a question.

Speaker 2: 12:18

Well, two things come to my mind. One I resonate with that so deeply because I think you so eloquently put like why it was always easier to talk to the internet or like go on and talk about my disease or what I was experiencing. I felt such like again my level of understanding this as a therapist, I think, has only been amplified by my personal experience with this to really understand what that darkness looks like when you don't know you're in the darkness and how, again, like people I've never met, people from across the world, you know connecting like it's been incredible and sometimes it feels weird. You know it feels weird that I know at one point Carrie was like she would. She was really hurt. You know we had to like go into session about it because she felt like I could connect to anybody but her. She was right. Everything she said made me feel guilty about my disease. I miss when you cook dinner. She was trying to connect with me. All I heard was something else I wasn't doing. And so, to your point, I think we hear it as weak.

Speaker 2: 13:21

But the other example I know it's not a great one is, I always say when people are talking about cheating, right, it is so easy to have an affair. Think about it. You get all the best parts of something and none of the strike right, like it's none of the work. It's, you know, of course, like that's an appealing option, you know. But in the same way it kind of ties to this too. You know, like I could talk about rare disease period. I mean, for the first five years of rare, I never even said I was a therapist because I never wanted anyone to know or think that like I like that wasn't the role I wanted to hold there and I got to do that. You were the keeper of information in this way. So I think that it's like that's a really deep thing there.

Speaker 3: 14:01

Yeah, there's. No, there's no history there, crowds, what you're trying to get across or what type of support that you're looking for, and so it's. You know I don't think it's emotional baggage by any means, but but it's. There are different types of ways for us to get support, yeah, and and where we feel comfortable in the moment can vary. It's why you mentioned kind of being comfortable in your car. Now, there is some privacy that that afforded to you that has now been translated into just this is where I'm most comfortable, where I can disclose what feels safe to me, irrespective of who's in the house and who isn't. So you've created an environment that's comfortable for you and that may differ depending on the social setting, the support you're getting for and topic right.

Speaker 2: 14:49

Like you know, I think different topics cause like again, like different space. You know, like I could talk to anybody about, like when I was, when I'm sitting in a therapist seat doesn't matter where I am, you know. But I also know that, like, if certain clients see something different, it will be like a 10 to 20 minute conversation where they're like going through the checklist of what makes them feel comfortable and of course I allow them to. I'm like, no, I'm just in a different house, I'm in a closed, you know. But again like that level of of comfort which I think ties back into so this whole journey where, okay, you get off the plane and now you're going back home to. You know how do you go back to? You know, like, so this is in your mind, but you have to go back to work and life and kids Like, so what happens next?

Speaker 3: 15:31

Well, so I I have this flight just plants this seed in my head of gosh. I needed that. And what was comfortable about me talking? Kind of wondering how I went so quickly into talking with a complete stranger about something that felt very personal to me. And a week after, I was in grad school and we had class on the weekends and this was one of those times where I was in person and I see a classmate of mine who's a Green Beret veteran has an app that he wants feedback on and it was for a military audience, but he just wanted people to try it out and get feedback and it was a virtual reality app at the time and I tried it and it transported me to another place. It was literally practicing language in another country just outside of DC, and I felt somewhere else.

Speaker 3: 16:28

And that experience got me thinking about space and about digital space, and I had been doing lots of Zoom calls for work and I was just annoyed at just how we took a camera and slapped it on what would be an in-person interaction and called it digital. And so that kind of experience, which I think just happened to be so close to me taking this flight gelled the concept of. We really haven't done much when it comes to innovating digital spaces, in particular to prompt a desired output. We've created Zoom fatigue and we've created anxiety at looking at ourselves in our own image when we're on these web calls. We've had unintended consequences. We haven't actually stepped back. And how do we want people to feel when they're in a digital space? And I started thinking about the power of designing a digital medium to not only make you feel comfortable but to connect you with those people who aren't in your social network but are on that same part of journey, so you could get that form of support, kind of recreating the flight experience.

Speaker 2: 17:42

Like I said, I guess I never realized how close these two events were together, because I get like, change one thing, change everything. These two events were together because, again, like change one thing, change everything. And, um, you know, I think it's really crazy that, had it, would have just been like one of those things where you're like, oh wow, vr is a cool thing. I'll, you know, I'll go to a Taylor Swift concert when they, you know, as opposed to it being in a certain sequence in which, like I can give, like that could be where, like I don't know, I feel like that's a really again, something that has to be so vulnerable in order to stick with you long enough that when the next piece falls into place, yeah, it really just felt like it wasn't one single moment where it was a series of events that happened to just gel this concept in my head, but it happened over the span of about two and a half weeks.

Speaker 3: 18:30

And then it became this concept of using a digital space to create groups and moderated support. And it became this, this idea that I couldn't shake.

Speaker 2: 18:42

I was just going to say and then the entrepreneurial bug like, cause, I've been there and where it's like you cannot explain where you get the strength, or to like, do both. Where it's like you working full-time and then you're building all night and but I know exactly what you're talking about when you believe in something so much where that, like you can't stop until it's coming.

Speaker 3: 19:00

Yeah it, I mean it was. It was very much right time, right place for me. Um, so that personal element happens. I then have a classmate who has me thinking about the medium, but then the sheer process of me being in grad school had me priming myself. I built a level of confidence in my own abilities to not be someone as a spectator, but actually you know, think about the Roosevelt quote to be a person in the arena actually create something.

Speaker 3: 19:30

And and so I I don't think, had I had this flight and had that experience without the same timing of going through that grad school piece and and realizing less about where do I want to find a job and more about where do I want to where do I want to look back 10 years from now and say I did this, I helped create this. It became much more about my why and it was just a function of of timing for me.

Speaker 2: 19:56

So okay. So here's my next big question, and that has to do with cause. I know when that bug hits right, like and if, and it becomes, honestly, it feels a little bit like an addiction. You know, like when you know something is just so good you can't ignore it. Maybe that's the new quote, david we're no longer going to wait for other people. Be so good, you can't ignore yourself, but not gonna lie. So like you're getting into a space you've never been into, right, like you're not a clinician.

Speaker 2: 20:23

You've had this I mean by your own words essentially pushed off your own mental health for a year. Um, and so I guess my, my question is like, when did that? Um, the you? You've built the thing right Cabana, Cabana exists right. So you get to the top of that mountain and then you're like, oh wow, you know you can't be the entrepreneur or the person like that, that spark can't last forever, kind of thing. Like you know, it's got to be maintained now. Um, when did you, or like ever think like either like oh my god, I built this, but like I haven't even done therapy, or oh my god, I built this and I, like you know, I mean like some sort of maybe imposter syndrome, or maybe it's, um you know, did you ever circle back on your own mental health or how did that kind of shake after you kind of did the thing?

Speaker 3: 21:12

Oh yeah, I think every entrepreneur I've met it is a support group.

Speaker 3: 21:18

Every time you get more than one entrepreneur talking to another in a room because there's, by definition, you're doing something that hasn't been done before. Definition, you're doing something that hasn't been done before, and so it comes with a whole host of doubts about. You know, from the concept, the approach, the knowing, the balance between am I being stubborn versus being passionate, versus being wrong, uh and? And also just needing to listen to people. And so there is, there's a very humbling experience that goes into, at least for me, where you have this idea and you have versions of self humility and guidance from others, the better off you are at addressing those self-doubts. So, case in point, I'm not a mental health professional.

Speaker 3: 22:22

I don't play one on TV. I don't pretend to be one. I'm just someone that has been on the business side of healthcare and seen frustrations about the fact that we don't have enough providers. We have a payment system that in some cases doesn't pay enough to those providers and we have a whole swath of people 50 plus, depending on the state that never seek support. So, like we, we have a functional problem in the system. That I am confident I know well enough. But I also am confident that there are a lot of clinical experts out there that can help us. So it becomes more about understanding your role and where do you go and find the right expertise to help. So what role do I play? What role do others play?

Speaker 2: 23:05

Well, I mean, I remember very, remember very, I mean in my interview, like crystal clear, remember it. Um, when you said to me that, essentially, like, this isn't a sustainable system, and going back to the beginning of the episode, I told you 96 clients, I was, I I felt so seen by that one sentence of like you could be doing great work, but like you, you can't. Like it's not, you isn't, you're not the problem. You know it's like this is not made to work. And it was the first time I've ever in the profession, ever been empowered to blow the box up. Essentially, you know, because in school and the way we practice and insurance, like you know it's, we talked about this a lot. You know it's the never ending the, the never ending hamster wheel, um, and there's not enough professionals.

Speaker 2: 23:50

And that was when, for me, when I was like you know, cause it is scary as a professional being like, um, the only clinician in the room or being like, oh, no, we're going to go into corporate, you know it's, first of all, society tells us how to, you know, like, creates these like um things where it's like, oh, you know there's a people who go into this, and because they care and the people who go to business because of this. And so I know for me it was instantaneous where I'm like again what I felt, like again a therapeutic moment where you were just like allowed me to be, like, yes, like there's so many other ways we could help support. And you know, I mean very early on, even when we were creating. I mean then it was the balance eight, but you know now what is now known as the balance self. You know you had said to me you were just like forget the textbook, like you know, and again, we, we go by the DSM, the this, the that, and it has been such a refreshing thing to be able to work here.

Speaker 2: 24:47

And essentially, where I think this like you're when you say you surround yourself with people that like have the expertise where I feel we've gone head to head people. If you're wondering, we go head to head often, david and I, in a very healthy way. But you know he's not afraid to challenge old school thinking or challenge any of it, and I'm not afraid to be like, hey, we need more clinical voice in this. But I think that's what also is so beautiful about one. You can confidently say that that's like truly combating imposter syndrome. That's an action right, surrounding yourself with people that you trust, to do that with something that you hold so close to you, like through those actions. You know, I think that again, like innovation is like what I think of when I think of Kabaddi.

Speaker 3: 25:35

You know, even in a world where you know we have so many mental health apps, yeah Well, you know I also will say I get in this role, I get a chance to talk to a number of clinical professionals in this, and every time I go into a clinical professional conversation I know I'm not a clinician but I also know I've spent the past seven years reading a ton of literature about what we are doing in the therapy community, in the mental health community in general, across the behavioral spectrum, and to hear clinicians give feedback about how what we're doing fits into their clinical models, fills, a gap, finds, needs.

Speaker 3: 26:12

I mean those conversations are what increase my confidence level in the direction we're going and the need for support. So I'm not standing here saying we're blowing up the model in the conventional sense, Like a therapist is out of a job. No, I'm. I'm saying this in the sense that we've got an incredible product in one-to-one therapy that is in a storefront and we've blacked out the windows. We've made the door really difficult to find and also really expensive for you to go into and, as a result, so many people are walking past that door and so that is great that we have that solution there, but it is not meeting all the current need and we've got to do something about it Well, and I think we've always known this.

Speaker 2: 26:56

But I think what COVID did was it because, like right, the idea of if I would have told my like baby, right out of school self that like one day I would be on the computer, on the phone, doing this work, I'd be like okay, and you know, um, there's life on my I don't know like something silly, because it's just unthinkable. And I think COVID, I think what is really unique about Cabana is, again, I don't, I've always loved that you've never tried to replace this. You know what I mean. Like there's no replacement, there's a spot for everyone. I believe that you know it's a continuum.

Speaker 2: 27:28

But what I think has always been really well done is that, um, we don't have to do it just one way, um, and that's what I think is like limited in the profession, you know. So COVID happens, and this, what it highlighted for me was okay, even you take away the barrier right of, like physical location, which is a big enough barrier, and now you know what you again, not that they're super affordable, they're more affordable through these things, and you have now you're even lowering the standards because we're licensed across, like there were so many things that opened up with COVID, with the big you know talk spaces and all that, and it was still a huge problem, like you know. There were still so many underserved. And that was a feeling when I was doing scrolling on LinkedIn when I saw this. It was like a lifeline to being like again something that seems so simple now, two years working with you, but at the time it was more like, oh, this could even be again.

Speaker 2: 28:29

Easy apply is great because you know you didn't spend much time on the application. When you're like, okay, I don't even know, these people are probably bots, because you know it seems too good to be true. But again, I think just to your point about two pieces having to come together at the right time. I think COVID amplified that. How many barriers there are outside of the barriers that we were we originally knew? And then, um, again without you coming and almost again blowing that box open for me, um, it doesn't happen. You know what I mean. Like I walked past that door too, like as a therapist, and I go next door, never talk to you, and continue just the cycle of seeing clients and trying to do as much good as I can.

Speaker 3: 29:11

I think we're the only ones recognizing this. You're seeing this happen already right now, where there are different opportunities for individuals to find support. I do feel much of the innovation that's happening right now is just trying to fix the door, or maybe the window dressing on that one-to-one therapy model, if you will, but isn't addressing the fact that there just aren't enough people to go around and also that for some individuals, particularly a lower income population, therapy is an elective. It's an elective procedure. If you are choosing between where to spend $165, which is the average outpatient copay for someone that's out of network and an expectation may not just be one conversation but could in fact be multiple conversation to build that relationship, you're staring at a potentially a thousand dollar cashflow expense for someone that may be living paycheck to paycheck.

Speaker 2: 30:15

And even the insured, though right Like with EAPs. They're a great solution, but unfortunately I can't tell you how many times I'm begging EAPs to give me mind you, we're talking two more sessions because there's no asking for infinite or mental health maintenance. There's none of that. You know I'm begging, I am fighting and, letter after letter, for two sessions to be approved. You know, or enough so that I could, like feel like I'm handing someone off with, I don't know, some confidence that I've done no harm. Or you know, it's not in the middle, because how much do you really get done in six sessions? I mean, let's be real.

Speaker 3: 30:47

Yeah, it is. It is tough. So you know. The point here is that is one model that we have been trying to use to apply to everyone across the spectrum, and if we're willing to pay for it and if the funds are there and we can make it work, great. But it's an expensive model and it is not going to be something that we can scale. We haven't demonstrated that we're able to scale that to meet all the needs. We just haven't. Even for COVID, we haven't.

Speaker 2: 31:16

That's what I'm saying. Covid was our best shot of even accepting that's what I felt. The 96 case loads when I told you I'm like, yeah, and again we get people to pay that fee by saying 24-hour therapist, you know, and all those things.

Speaker 3: 31:39

And so I'd love to know kind of you've been in this now for Cabana's been around. I think May 5th is, so for us, cinco de Mayo is actually Cabanaversary, for when we launched Cabana, we've, as a company, have been around just around four years getting our starts within the Air Force, but Cabana the work we've been doing for those groups started Cinco de Mayo.

Speaker 2: 32:02

I see how much I've learned as, just like a person, professionally, what, where are? What era are you? You know like where, where do you see now it going? And you know, with the also the fact that now we're in a post COVID world and that has changed.

Speaker 3: 32:19

but that a lot has changed because of that too. Yeah, so we've been working with health systems hospital employers for going on three years now. If you think about individuals that work in a hospital setting, it crosses, there's so many roles in a 24-7 operation that runs. That actually working supporting every employee across a hospital system has been a good test case for us at supporting the general demographic across the US, across really any employer, and the model we've built we feel applies completely based off the data that we've seen in the outcome. So for us, this is about how do we take a model makes mental health care support way more affordable, significantly more accessible? We're talking drop-in support. How do we just make that available to a larger population? So for us, it's about expanding our reach. No-transcript. So you want to have a space that feels comfortable for you, and many people attend therapy sessions not at home, not in their bedrooms, but in the car, because there might be a loved one that you don't want to overhear or just to risk it.

Speaker 2: 34:06

So even if you're not talking about them, right, like that's a, it's the craziest thing. But, to your point, where do you feel safe? And I think it's really nice to like you know a lot of what we do is talking about you know, like um, finding your cabana, like mentally, so that no matter where you are right, like you can get to a safe space, because location and visualization, we know, is so big in order to stop that fight or flight, big or small.

Speaker 3: 34:32

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 34:32

So when I think about accessibility, there are many ways that we can make something feel more accessible to someone, and that is always as you think about the design of the experience.

Speaker 3: 34:45

It's great if you have effective 16 week long program, but if it's not designed to meet the person where they are in their real life, then it is sitting on a shelf being dusted off if you can convince someone.

Speaker 3: 34:58

So we're very much focused on how do we take the science and the body of knowledge of what we know works for individuals from a clinical perspective and just adapt it so that it meets real life challenges. From where do you feel comfortable getting support, the physical space itself, to how do you like to engage, to how much time do you actually have? Now, if I have a 60 minute requirement but you only have five, let's find a five minute option that helps you in that busy moment, those three minute options. So the piece that we're focused on is there are common barriers. There's the convenience of stuff. There's the privacy that I need to feel, the trust I need to feel from who's delivering that, and then there's also just this I want to be able to have control over how I do something, the self-reliance on it, and so everything we're building maps to some of those barriers that keep you from getting support.

Speaker 4: 35:49

Well, here looks like a good place to stop. This episode was too good to only be one, so join us Thursday as we continue the conversation with David Until. Then, mind your health. Seriously, you're fine. You're fine because you have the power to access your place of peace anytime you need it. However, if you get stuck, we're right at the palm of your hand to help check out our show notes for this week's source list, recommended content and cabana live group schedule. We'll catch you next week for a brand new episode of you're always fine.