Speaker 1: 0:03

Welcome back to You're Always Fine a space to show up for yourself and embrace the mess that lives underneath. Because, let's be real, it's exhausting always being fine. So grab your headphones and allow yourself to listen, laugh and even cry, because you are not alone. And we aren't always fine, and that's okay.

Speaker 2: 0:27

So you're back with another episode of You're Always Fine and I have a special surprise for you guys Today. I'm your host, christine, and I'm busy, that's right. We have our producer busy behind the mic today to talk about friendship breakups. Okay, so just to ground us all. A friendship break up, you know, when you're friends with someone at different, varying levels and you either drift apart or you fall apart. You have a disagreement, something happens, a betrayal, and you kind of think about it from kindergarten all the way through, like your adult life. This is kind of constantly happening, but we don't always like process it.

Speaker 3: 1:07

Yeah, I think you know, looking back at, like you said, starting kindergarten, throughout an adult life you have those friendships, some that just kind of drift apart. Naturally, you know life happens, you guys are busy, people move away, you're on sort of separate life paths or your habits and passions don't align anymore. Or you know, I remember a time I had a pretty big falling out with one of my best friends in college and we didn't talk for months and eventually we found each other and came back together and are still friends. But you know, you have these times where you just have these falling outs and you're not really sure what to do or how to cope, because it is different than a relationship. It's more complex and more nuanced, but I think you're right, it goes throughout your whole life.

Speaker 2: 1:52

Well, and it's interesting, right, when we think about the concept of friendships. Why is it so hard for adults to find new friends? It's usually because all of our friendships are kind of forced situations. A little bit right, your kindergarten class, right. And then, if you're not in the same kindergarten, a first grade class as you were with someone you were friends with in kindergarten, like that just evolves and changes, right, and so on and so forth. And even when we get to college, right, freshmen, why is transferring so hard for people? Right, most of the time, because freshman year you're all in that anxious state of wanting to meet new friends. You all have the same goal. You're kind of thrown together and forced a little bit to be friends, and then at work is usually like the next big pool that you meet your friends, and so it's just.

Speaker 2: 2:43

It's very interesting when we think about how much we change over a lifetime and how these people who have had such a significant impact on us, like, can just essentially drift away. Right, you talked about a fallout and coming back together, which I think is definitely one way, but for me it's always just the quiet exit that I'm like how did it get here? How did our, something we've had since the second grade. We're 35 now. How did we get to a place where I literally sent you just a happy birthday text on your birthday? Like just happy birthday, no nuance to it.

Speaker 3: 3:25

Definitely. I mean, I have experienced that as well. It's one of, I would say, the weirdest ways. You're so close with somebody they were one of your best friends, your roommates, your everything and then all of a sudden, like you said, when that situational kind of glue falls apart and they move away and you move away and you kind of start your career paths, it's what, what's holding us together anymore? And fortunately, sometimes what you had isn't enough. And then it's just kind of like you know, there's text window, it is the happy birthday, and then the weirdest thing is when that happy birthday text doesn't come.

Speaker 2: 4:00

And then you're oddly mad. You're oddly mad about the happy birthday text. Or you know, I know for myself too it's like with one of my oldest friends, like we're in that, we're in that stage and every year it's like I don't want to send it. Like her birthday comes before mine and I'm like like let's just not in a bad way, let's just cut it off, like we don't need that, like you know what I mean. But then it's like if I send it, it's like then you're like you know what I mean, like it's right, your string and I'm someone who often has like been the glue in a in a friendship, or you know it's constantly reaching out I'm the one that's constantly putting in that effort and as it become more of an adult, I realize that you know I want more of a balance in in this and definitely, just like any relationship, friendships are hard work, their effort, their, you know, they're picking up and showing up and all those things.

Speaker 2: 4:51

And you know how, when I really like examine how we got to just this one happy birthday text, it was because I felt that unless I engage the conversation, I was not getting any engagement back. Or then, when I did say you know what? I'm going to suck it up. I'm going to like how are things right? And then it's like good period. You, what can? You don't want a connection. Like to me, I'm like that's not a relationship that I really want, like time doesn't, or just because we're in each other's lives for a period of time or an era, if you will, like I can be at peace with. Like that, as opposed to like bringing dragging things into here just to say that like we're quote unquote, on good terms or whatever have you? You know, I don't know it's it's very interesting.

Speaker 3: 5:35

Definitely. I think I've also been in a similar situation where eventually I got to the point where I kind of almost did an experiment in a way. I was like I'm going to stop reaching out. I'm the person that always is reaching out or making the plans or checking in and this other individual does not. And you know what I'm going to see what happens when I stop.

Speaker 3: 5:56

And I think a super, super big catalyst that was COVID. You know, you really had to make that effort to maintain especially long distance friendships because you couldn't see each other in any capacity, you couldn't go outside with them, you really couldn't do much. So it was just how are you going to show up for me right now, when I'm showing up for you and unfortunately sometimes it's not returned and you have to either say hey, I'm okay with not reaching out, or have that bigger conversation Like what's going on? Is there something else happening? But yeah, I think it's totally a similar situation where you just you can't always be the person reaching out, because it takes an emotional toll on you as well.

Speaker 2: 6:37

Yes, and it's so funny because I don't know if I ever, like in my head, thought it was like an experiment or whatever. But I too had, like you know, several situations where it's like, well, if I don't do this, like what happens? Right? Like just what does that communication look like? And you know, even if I serve that in different areas of my life, like if I don't serve it in this one, like what? And I don't know why, it always feels surprising because it's like, if I'm doing this, I pretty much know the answer right, but it does C��? Yust be quite surprising when you know the, what we know I think is gone, like which is like the actual friendship and connection when we know it's gone. But we, I guess like, maybe it's the Hail Mary, maybe it's the just wanna check, maybe it's just me kind of thing.

Speaker 3: 7:29

Yes, and I think it's like that. You get to the point when you feel that and you're like let me just try one last time, and then it's like kind of that nail in the coffin like oh, like it's there. You were kind of hoping it never would be, but I feel like at that point you can't really deny it anymore or defend. So you are hitting that stop where it's like all right, something. Either this is unfortunately done or something needs to change.

Speaker 2: 7:54

And I think to that change point. It's really interesting because, at least in my experience, you know, because of the role I played in my friendship groups it's like it's something going on. Like when you go for that change or you try to reestablish that, it's like it almost means like what are you talking about? Everything's fine, you know. Because it's like I'm changing my behavior and I'm asking for more, and so every like there's nothing wrong, they're like well, you're not reaching out to me, right, and like it's that expectation, that like you're gonna do, because you've always done.

Speaker 2: 8:25

And then when you try to recalibrate that expectation, it can be really difficult. I mean it's really difficult in, you know, spousal relationships where you don't have to worry, like you live under the same house or you know what I mean, like that investment, and so I mean, shoot, it's really hard for parents to reset their expectation for their kids, Absolutely. So you know, I think too that's like a tricky place to be in when you're like, because sometimes it's like you care about the friendship, you bring it to their attention, but it's almost like you're met with like what are you talking about? A resistance. Yeah, like. What are you talking about? Like?

Speaker 2: 8:58

this is like nothing's wrong, or you know why are you needing more from me than before?

Speaker 3: 9:04

Right and I think a big part, especially in my life, like kind of like you said, like the glue analogy you were that glue in that friend group. I feel like sometimes I was the opposite. I would be in big, big friend groups with seven, 10 people, five girls, you know, something like that. And a lot of people just could not understand that, like you're just closer with certain people in life and you don't have to be best friends with everybody in the friend group. So that would rub people the wrong way, that I would want to spend time individually with other people or in smaller settings, and this would upset the other five people and it's just they couldn't comprehend that you're not best friends with everybody in the big friend group.

Speaker 3: 9:41

That's not life, that's not how it is. You're not best friends with everybody in your class. You're not best friends with everybody in your neighborhood. You have those individuals and kind of like that, when I wasn't showing up for them, like I was showing up for other people, they couldn't look at themselves either and be like I don't even want to be close with you either, I'm not showing up for you either. So it was like that weird dynamic and I think that's even how you get with one-on-one friendships, like if you're still showing up for them and they're not showing up for you, and then you give them the same behavior back. It's like what's going on.

Speaker 2: 10:09

There were some things, exactly when they're met with their own behavior. It's no longer okay, and I 100% agree.

Speaker 2: 10:19

It's really as crazy, I mean. I think that's kind of why we talked about really doing that inner work and understanding your internal narrative, so that you can have those conversations to know what you bring to the table, right, like to know that, like I know I can only, like from doing the work, I can only really have a small group of friends because of the way I invest and I need to be very selective about how I invest in friendships because I know that I can give and give and give in order to make it so that it doesn't end pretty much how all my friendships ended, which is my classic, just like Hermione, you know, when she does the spell to like show her parents, I remember her Like that's like when I'm uncomfortable, we're not gonna have a big blow up or anything, I'm gonna like slowly try to disappear from your life and then most of the time that leaves people being like what the actual hell just happened. But it's because I felt in another way that when I tried to show you I needed something, it wasn't there. But it really speaks to write this internal turmoil that I think happened after the breakup or in the middle of the breakup or when you're just kind of reminiscing about, you know, seeing an old picture, and all of a sudden all the feelings come back, like shh, you know, it hasn't been enough time.

Speaker 2: 11:36

Should I reach out to them? If I reach out to them with this memory, like what? And you know I struggle with this all the time, what do I want out of it? Like I struggle because I'm like, oh my God, I want them to know that in this very moment I'm thinking of them in a very fond way. Then it's also like well, if you don't want to rekindle a friendship and you don't want to be anxious about whether they're gonna respond like how it ended, you know, I don't know. What do you think?

Speaker 3: 11:59

I mean absolutely. I think it's one of those things, especially with social media, where you have those reminders of memories. On this day, six years ago, you were doing this with that person and it pops up and, like you said a lot of the times, it doesn't have to be a negative feeling or, you know, a remorseful or regretful even. It can just be that, like you know, in this moment we had these great memories and just because we're not close anymore doesn't negate that what we had was so fun and great and you were a great friend in the moment and kind of what I needed. But it is that weird, like okay, do I want to send it to them? Do I want to reopen that? Either it could just it could be a wound or it could just be like a little window.

Speaker 3: 12:37

Do I want to just kind of peek back into their life? I think, like another big thing is when they post something major like a kid, a marriage, an engagement or something you hear through the grapevine, or somebody, like somebody died, they sustained a really big injury and illness, something like that and it's. Do you want to reach out in a sympathetic way or a congratulatory way and what that boundary is, and I think, like you said, doing that inner work and having that boundary set with yourself is like super, super important. And then the other way, if they reach out, how do you want to respond, which I think we don't think about enough, because that definitely happens, Oof yes.

Speaker 2: 13:15

So I'm going to go first to your first point about, like, when you want to reach out, because I also think, depending on the way in which a friendship breaks up, it causes different levels, right, of how you respond to things. Right, because I do really like write what you've fallen over 20 years ago May not matter as much, but when you're looking at a memory but one of the very close people to me growing up, we had a major falling out and about a few years ago her brother passed away and I was really just horn, I didn't know what to do. I didn't know if to reach out, because I didn't want it to seem like I was using this terrible thing that is happening to her as any way to be manipulative or to cause her any more pain. But I didn't want to know also if I didn't reach out, think that I didn't give a crap and so like, how do I align with my values?

Speaker 2: 14:18

And I really struggled with that to find a place and for me I try to really not only think about my piece but also kind of the piece that like disrupting somebody else's piece. I think that's part of that like external self-awareness, you know, and just because it would feel good for me to say that I reached out to her like doesn't mean it was the right thing for her, and that's really important too. As we grow up, we realize that like it's bigger than just what we need or what we need, you know, like I think that you then would have to find a different way to be okay with yourself. You know, I ended up donating anonymously, and because I did, I wasn't sure the impact that my reaching out would get.

Speaker 3: 15:07

Absolutely.

Speaker 2: 15:07

And so, again, like she doesn't know that and so I can't help what she, you know, like what she feels or how she feels, but again and I do, when we're having conversations like this, like I don't know, like me the right call, I mean you know what I mean, unless you have that other person there to tell you what the right or the wrong thing was to do. But, you know, trying to find a way as opposed to like drifting apart. You know, I feel like maybe the door is still open. It might be an awkward door, but it's like I think there's like less nuance to that.

Speaker 3: 15:40

Yeah, definitely. I think what you bring up is so important as well, like that self-awareness, like just because I'm ready to reach out to them or ready to whatever it is involving them and our friendship doesn't mean they're ready either. Like I know there have been times when I've seen like an old friend's text, like name up, come across my phone and I get that feeling. I'm like whoa, like it could just be as simple as like checking in, like hey, what's up? Or you know, you never know what it is and I think it's, you know, using that little piece of like empathy and self-awareness. Like if I reach out to them, what is this going to cause with them internally and them emotionally?

Speaker 3: 16:15

And even you know, because you have separated, you're not always aware of their emotional state or what's going on in their environment. So it's also like putting yourself like kind of hitting that pause button, like, okay, I don't know what they're going through right now, and if they are going through like an emotional time, is this really the time to reach out? And also like are you ready? I think a lot of times like people jump the gun and just send that like hey, how are you texts, not thinking that it's anything more like hey, just checking it, or a memory or a photo or whatever it is Not realizing, like is this opening up the door? Am I ready? Are they ready? It is a two-way street.

Speaker 2: 16:51

And opening up that door, right Like when you reach out, it does open up that door. And if your only thing is to just share that memory, like maybe not including them, because if you're, you know you're kind of starting a cycle all over again in which you know hurting yourself or the other person. And then I think you brought up something I wasn't even thinking about, but I think you're 100% on the money with this whole what to do when you're someone, like you know, on the receiving end, you're on the receiving end.

Speaker 3: 17:27

You're right, I don't think we prep for that.

Speaker 2: 17:29

Like you know, we prep for the other one because it's in our control. But like, what do you do when you receive that and it does like screw your day? Yeah, you know we think about it with like an act, boyfriend right or ex-girlfriend we're like so easy to be like. You know that throws my whole day off. But I know there's a few people that if their name came across my screen it would rock my world.

Speaker 3: 17:51

Yeah, no, absolutely. And I think it's normal to like kind of know your response with like an X in a way, because you kind of are more, I would say, firm in where you stand. Like you kind of know, like okay, I'm going to respond or I'm not. But I think it's that friendship. It's so weird, like it was good but then it wasn't. And you know those times where it just was that slow drift away and nothing happened, it's like, well, do we try this again? Do we try and be friends again? And I don't really think there's anything that can prepare you, because I also think that when an X reaches out, there's typically something going on. They've seen a post, there's a memory, there's a reminder this time of year we were doing this or that. But I think a friend is so much more random just because that's just, I feel like how it is. So it's also like nothing is preparing you for that memory, that text, that email, that friend request, even like a LinkedIn thing oh my God, like we don't even think about that.

Speaker 2: 18:47

That is so true when you see certain people come Like, why do you? When I see certain people come on and I love that you said LinkedIn because 100% in this age of social media it's like, well, I'm not going to be the one that first Instagram friend, but I sure as hell will like casually drop into the like your LinkedIn friend request. And then I know for me, when some of those friend requests have come in, I felt like, oh so you're friend requesting me because you want this information, but you don't want to do the hard work of talking to me or like investing your time in me. You want to passively consume my life, and that's probably dramatic and everything else. But again, these very small things that happen with so much access to social media.

Speaker 3: 19:23

Yes, and I think I want to call out another weird thing that I know we kind of talked about in the past, but something else that I think we don't acknowledge enough is if you are in that big friend group or even a smaller friend group and say you were part of a trio or a little quad group and two of them like remain really close and you remain close with one of them, and then you have that awkward dynamic of, oh, I used to be best friends with both of them and now I'm only friends with one, and you see, the one is friends with both, so they're still posting this other person and it's just like, oh, I'm going to be the one is friends with both, so they're still posting this other person, and it's just like that weird thing of like, okay, if they're still friends with them, why am I not Like that self-doubt?

Speaker 3: 20:04

And I think it's like, unfortunately, in that moment I know I struggle with looking at what was wrong with myself in that friendship and not the other person, which I think like it's very hard to do to look at that other person and pull them apart and see, like, okay, maybe it wasn't me. I just think it's always easier for myself and I'm sure you as well. You've talked about, you know, being that glue, being that person that always reaches out, like looking at how maybe it wasn't you and it was that, like I'm sure there's fall on both ends in most places, but I think that's really hard and that's something I definitely struggle with, like seeing other people remain friends and me not be there and wondering like what could I have done? What did I do?

Speaker 2: 20:44

Or why wasn't I enough to like invent, like why they're so willing to invest in this relationship, but, like everyone was so willing to let me go and that was the reason you guys are even friends. I mean, I have, yes, similar like trio group where, like I just again like it was very difficult to like watch all this things, one knowing that, like I, was the reason they were friends, knowing all the history we had, and then also knowing you know you guys make these efforts all the time.

Speaker 3: 21:12

Yet yes, and I think like enough for that.

Speaker 2: 21:16

And I mean, one of the things I say often is, again, because when you confront people, a lot of times if this was just a dynamic and the role you played, they're not going to see, they're going to be like, well, you should have spoken up. Well, when in the third grade we're talking about and so I know for me, like I had to start realizing that, like, not every friendship will have like a nice bow on it and that I'm going to have to give closure to myself in a lot of these situations, yes, and release and let go things that and people that, yeah, no longer. You know, like you said, align to. You know who I am, who I want to be. Yeah, you're right. Like there was this version of me that gave and gave and gave because I had not done any internal work, so all my validation was external and so, like that's the purpose it served at the time, but that's not who I am anymore.

Speaker 3: 22:09

Right, absolutely. And I think that also goes back to like just because we were friends doesn't mean we have to remain friends, and I know that's like really, really hard and I know that sometimes that goes against like I'm a very, very loyal person, so sometimes it's hard for me to be like well, we were friends and we have all this history and I can't do that. But at the end of the day, like you should be loyal to yourself and your own, like what's serving you and if you don't want to be that person, like you're not the same person you were when you formed that friendship in elementary school or middle, even college, even maybe a year ago. Life throws things at you and you grow and I think when you start realizing the people that are showing up for you and the way you want them to and the way you show up for them, is when you're like okay, I don't need 18 friends, I need eight really close ones that I can count on.

Speaker 2: 23:00

No, 100%. I completely agree, and I think that goes to like kind of where we were just talking about when this breakup happens. But what happens when you need to actively break up with someone? I can say, luckily I've not been very good as I told you guys at things like that, because I do I feel very bad. I feel like there's a lot of guilt associated with that.

Speaker 3: 23:22

Yeah, definitely.

Speaker 2: 23:24

Every friendship is different and requires different amount of investment, energy, and sometimes you can't give the demands of a friendship, or sometimes it's no longer serving you because you're not in that era of your life anymore. I think it's really hard to know when to prioritize yourself and to say this friendship needs to either drift away or slowly fizzle, or I have to put a hard boundary up. I don't think that's ever easy.

Speaker 3: 24:03

No, I think in relationships it's easier in a way, because you have more of a concrete reason. You're not necessarily drifting apart in relationships the same way you are friendships.

Speaker 2: 24:15

It's like there's no slow fade on that. I mean maybe, but once that kind of like we're broken up, we're broken up.

Speaker 3: 24:23

Yes, it's that friendship that we text every day. Life happened. We're texting once a week, a couple of times a week, and then it's all of a sudden we're not texting at all. Does that mean the friendship's over? What do I do with that information? I think a lot of times, like you said, there's not going to be that closure. Unfortunately, it's just going to be that fade out. A question I want to ask you as a therapist and you being a little bit older and role model.

Speaker 3: 24:49

All right, Bizz, we have to throw the old comment in why are we so okay with other? I mean, a big term is class friends, those friends you had in class or those friends you had in situations. Oh, they were a soccer mom with me and then the season was done and we were okay like not seeing each other, or that school year ended and we're fine. Why are we so fine with those friendships? You guys could have been really close too. Why are we so okay with those friendships fading out as kind of like the season change for other friendships, Like and I'm saying you could have had the same level almost of friendship in a way, but like, why are we so okay with those fading out and ending and others not?

Speaker 2: 25:25

Another question. I think part of it comes from like attaching worth to, and self-love and status, even in a way to certain identified like friend groups, and I don't think we do it consciously, right, like I think that you know I don't think of a single when I'm talking about all these friendships. I'm talking about all my elementary like friends I've had since elementary school Like I don't even think of, I have no emotional weight to any of my college friends. I love them to death but like those fading out, mean, have like zero to no impact on me as these other friends. And I've seen clients who have the reverse right, like no one really from their hometown but you know, something happens in their college friend group and they really fall apart. And so I think it's about like how you attach your identity to these friend groups and then again, like applying your values.

Speaker 2: 26:22

Like you said, you're really loyal. So what does it mean? Am I not really loyal if I like don't give this, you know, or if I don't consistently show up, you know? And I think also one thing we have to do a better job of, in my opinion, is realizing that who am I like when good, better and different? Who am I calling, Like, who's my overall I don't want to say best friend, I think it's over who's my person, right?

Speaker 2: 26:45

And then I think you could have different friends for different areas and parts of you, and I think that's one of the things that you can do in a relationship, that you can do in a friendship, right?

Speaker 2: 26:55

So if you really like, you know, getting your nails done and going to the mall and you know you have a friend that's like really enjoys that too, yeah, you might not like maybe get drunk on a Friday night with her or, you know, maybe you spend a lot of time listening about her relationship stuff, but, like, you do those things together, right, and that's like the core of the friendship. And I think that speaks to like your seasons, right, yeah, and no longer. And I think we have to start being okay, especially as adults, where it's like you know, I have my friends who, like when the Taylor Swift album drops, like that group of people that I reach out to because, like it's our thing, we don't talk in between album drops, it's crazy, right, like, and we just don't, I don't. And I don't think that means they love me or they don't love me or I don't attack you of that worth to that, because it's just this kind of like thing that we have together. But you know absolutely.

Speaker 2: 27:44

When you think of like college friends and work friends or all these groups I think there's an attachment to, because there are big transitional periods in our lives, right Like school age. You know you grow up someone with that's history, college again transitional and then, depending on your work environment, if you happen to get like toxic work environments, trauma, bonding, you know, or really being aligned and in love with a mission. You know you see a lot of this too in like med school and law school, like really it, like that feeling clinging to those, like people you went through that with, and I think, though that's very, it ends up being limiting because you know that's just a part, like a season, like you said.

Speaker 3: 28:26

Definitely. I think what you said about having friends for different things is so important and I would agree with that 100%. Like I have my friends, like I'm a huge, huge Ravens fan, I have my friends that will come to the game with me, no matter how much the tickets are.

Speaker 3: 28:41

Like I have those friends and then other friends are like yeah, I'll watch the game with you, but I'm not spending that on.

Speaker 3: 28:45

Like. Or I'll have friends that like they really like to go on walks with me and hikes and I have other friends, are like we're hitting the bars, like there are those people, but I would say like one common theme and how, in a weird way, I've started like measuring, measuring my friendships. But any of those people I could call in the middle of the night on the side of the road and be like my my car broke down. Like can you come get me? Like any of those people like that's a way Like to, if I can't call you in the middle of the night to help me with something, or you're not going to be there with like reaching out to me, like I just broke my leg. Like my friends that are reaching out to me or dropping over basket or being like, oh my gosh, you're still going to be included, we'll push you around a wheelchair, like those people, no matter what genre or like you know they fit.

Speaker 2: 29:26

And I think exactly. I think having higher standards for our friendships will also make breakups as adults. I think, right Like it will make a different right Cause then you're going to see the drifting.

Speaker 3: 29:37

You're not going to see and if you have a major blowout.

Speaker 2: 29:39

You know what you're going to come back to the table and like readdress it and. But then it comes from like that quality of making ensuring that you know who you're allowing into your life. Yeah, and of course I'm going to sound like a broken record, but of course you can't know who to involve in your life until you know truly internally, like what you need and what that internal landscape looks like. You said some when you were talking about like the Ravens and and gaming and all of that I also think restructuring are. I think because best friends like you are at the hip all the time and you know you weren't best friends if you didn't do absolutely everything together, and maybe that's just one real thing.

Speaker 3: 30:19

But I think that best friend almost has, like, has become almost a sort of toxic thing in a way, like we are so and like movies, tv shows, social media, it's like this person is my best friend, I'm not with them. 23, 6 of 24, 7, like we're not best friends and like measuring a friendship by the hours you spend with them it doesn't mean that they have to be good hours Like it's this weird obsession with putting this one person on a pedestal.

Speaker 2: 30:49

Yes, and I think too, when I think that's where you know, when you look at what you were saying about those different types of friends, it's like, yeah, we try to make somebody and I was always the best person, I was always good for a good time, so like I was okay going to everybody's concerts or this or that and, you know, never complained or anything but like, how many people came to a Taylor Swift show with me? Right, you know? And so you know, stop trying to make one person be everything in terms of a friendship. Right, some people are. You know. I learned this when I got sick. You know, some people aren't going to be able to show up for you the way you need them to, and that doesn't mean there's anything like wrong with it, it was just right. It's just that they can their own limitations, and you know. So when I'm feeling good, I can choose how I want to move forward with that.

Speaker 3: 31:42

Right and I have a question, I guess another question for you. So you have this person and they're not showing up for you, but you kind of know that they can, but you're just not sure how to communicate how. You need them to show up for you, but you want to. How would you go about? It's not a friendship that's like phased out. It's an active friendship. They're just not showing up the way that you need them in the moment. How would you communicate that to them?

Speaker 2: 32:06

What? First, make sure that I wasn't expecting them to mind read. Have I actually ever stated to them the way that I need them to show up?

Speaker 3: 32:16

Good point.

Speaker 2: 32:17

So you know, for instance, you know that friend you call when you're really like hysterical and you do not need them to give you a solution. You need them to just listen and be like F him, f that, f work, you know, because that's what you need in that moment. Right, you know, and they're over here and you're feeling unheard because they're just like take a deep breath, I think they had positive intentions and you're like, oh my God, like I'm here every time you want to talk about someone's. You know incredulous Facebook posts and I listen, right. So again, did you tell them what you needed, either right in the beginning or as like an overall concept? I think starting small is easy.

Speaker 2: 32:55

So you know, um, a lot of times I'll preface and I'll be like hey, biz, I'm really upset right now and I need you to just listen and vent, I'm sure that there's a more rational solution but I not right now need to be in this moment that like we're riding, we're riding a dawn, we're like you know game of thrones thing, and that kind of sets the tone and that makes it a lot easier, cause then if they are not, if they still are doing it, then like you kind of have an answer about like whether or not.

Speaker 3: 33:27

Right, it's worth, yeah.

Speaker 2: 33:30

And then I would say, like, overall, you know what, really identifying first what showing up means for you and taking off some of sometimes we miss what showing up means for other people because that's not showing up for in our definition, and so it's like we expect our friends at times to well, I did. I bought you a Christmas gift, I thought about you when I was on vacation and I got you a souvenir. You know what I mean and we then measure how much they care or show up for us based on you know, when they go away they don't. They are so immersed with their families they never like return a text or they never got us a souvenir. I mean stupid example.

Speaker 3: 34:08

But right, no good example. I think that's a very valid thing. Like I bring, I think about you when I'm on vacation. I bring you back a shot glass or a magnet or a T-shirt, whatever it is, and you don't do the same. But that's not how it. It doesn't mean anything for you, but it means something for me.

Speaker 2: 34:23

Exactly right and so, and then I think, like, doing that like almost like a checklist, like okay, so, however, right, like she writes me, you know, I'm like every Monday morning I have like an affirmation, whatever, like what is there a way that she's showing up in which, like, I can then like see that that's like her way of showing up? And that might not be enough. I'm not saying it is or it isn't, but I think we're having a clear assessment of like what the true, like root of the problem is and is in also cause.

Speaker 2: 34:55

I think sometimes we get a little bit lost in, you know, wanting to feel validated in the friendship or wanting to feel just like any relationship right, like loved and important to someone, and how we show that, you know, can vary in different ways. I think one of the really important things is on the receiving end of that, like asking your friends, like how can I show up for you? Like busy, you broke it. Like how can I show up for you? What can I do to like I can't change it, you broke your leg, I can't change any of that. But how can I show up for you? What do you need in this moment? Like that I, yeah, can you know. And I think just that that kind of question is really good to ask. Like, if you don't know how to show up for someone or you feel like that you don't have words, it's the easiest thing you can do and it's the most validating because, yeah, it's so important that we, you know, in friendships where we're not trying to project or mind read fortune, tell, where just like, clear communication is really really, you know, important there. And then I think, right, it's about listening.

Speaker 2: 36:01

You know, I think when my sister, I think she's actually done a really good job of this, where I have said many times like something bothers me, and recently she was making plans and she was like you know, I don't want to continue doing something that makes you feel this way, would you like? So I don't want to continue prioritizing things over you or something, the way she worded. Just let me know that she heard me and like it was showing up for me differently. Now, mind you, I didn't really care, like it didn't have any impact on me. So I was like no, go to your thing. Like don't worry, we'll do it another weekend.

Speaker 2: 36:36

But by her saying that and like giving it back to me, like clearly showing that effort of like okay, I see how you need me to show up for you. I see how your definition of prioritizing works, and while in her head she always felt like she was prioritizing me because her and like that's the way her brain was working it wasn't translating and so, instead of being like defensive when something is brought to you, really trying to understand, is this almost like a language problem? You know, like, do you put priority differently than I? I know I have a extremely high loyalty, like my definition of loyalty is like if it's cut off, it's like you don't like you don't look, it's ridiculous. I'm aware of it, Right, and knowing other people like you know, but knowing that two-way street, like how I define it, I think is really helpful.

Speaker 3: 37:28

No, I think that's super helpful. I think you're right. Like the mind reading piece is huge, just because you know, you think that about that, like it's so important and especially like in this day and age, like a text you could read it one way and they meant it in a totally different way, Like or just they didn't know that this happened to you and you want them to bring you back as an evening. Like that means a lot to you and it could be a postcard, you know, like it could be something so simple, but that little action to you means more than they could ever know. And I think it is just like voicing that or doing that internal checklist, like okay, I know, I want ABC from a friend and I want them to show up XYZ, Like that's what I'm looking for. Is this person doing that and how can we get there? If I want to, If I want to invest in that, Exactly, yeah.

Speaker 2: 38:13

I think that that's 100% correct. You know it's. It comes down again, I think, to understanding yourself, because one of the things I remember when some how did if someone wants to ask me, how can I show up for you? I'm not sure I want to have an answer. I think that's a problem, right, Like, yeah, I mean I would agree, I would agree. I'm 50% of the fucking problem. Sorry about that. That means I'm 50% of the problem, right, Because now I'm expecting you, someone outside of my body, to know what I would like you to do in this very moment to make me feel better about something that you have no control over.

Speaker 2: 38:44

And so you're like and I don't even know how I want you to show up Exactly, because I don't even know what I want right now, exactly, and so I think being honest with yourself about like that doesn't mean that your feeling is invalid, right, like it's probably a signal, like absolutely a signal to be like something in this friendship is not, you know, fulfilling me or meeting my, you know, expectations. But before I take action, I need to know what it is so that I can clearly communicate that yeah, and that's like, that's like kind of your own personal thing that you have to, you have to go through.

Speaker 3: 39:21

And do you have any, I guess, like advice on how to do that internal self reflection, like how to get there and be like okay, I recognize in myself that I want these things out of a friend, and show up in these ways Like do you have any tips for that?

Speaker 2: 39:37

So I think you can do. First of all, I think it's about figuring out to your point about, like large group, small group is like where what kind of friend I am, so that you can assess, like your circle of friends in terms of like, what layer right Is it going to be? The core group is going to be, you know, the mid tier, or just like you know the acquaintance layer right, because each one of those layers are going to have different energy that you bring to it. And so I think knowing the type of friend you are is really important, because then you have like kind of a template of like essentially we all who we often think that right, like everyone thinks the way we do, right, like it's just. And so if you know the type of friend of you are, you at least have it listed, things that like could be potentially important to you, and then you can kind of be like okay, well, when I'm angry, what is?

Speaker 2: 40:29

What do I usually need? Do I need someone to listen and feel hurt or do I need a solution? Right, and at different times, different ways, but kind of like, make yourself a little flow chart to understand, like you know, how you work internally, and I would say, just ask yourself the question of, like, what do I need? What suits me? What am I looking for? Right, what's my objective when I reach out to my friend? Right, if I reach out to my friend and I have really good news and she acts very flat lined about something, my objective there, right, was someone to share the excitement with. And so who I reach out to, right, should I should pick my friend that I'm going to reach out to appropriately? You know, like definitely, some people just aren't, like you know, going to find exciting news, like they're just, you know it's the person right, that's the president. They're just like they really like it, but they're excited, that's not how they emote, right?

Speaker 3: 41:26

That's just not that person and I think that you're like back to when you said like the seasons of life and the people. Like you know you have your people. For certain things, exactly, you know you have your people. I'm going to share this great piece of news with this person because they'll give me the response. I'm looking for this person, like I'll still tell them, but I shouldn't look for that enthusiasm in.

Speaker 2: 41:44

Exactly so I think.

Speaker 2: 41:45

right, it's like if you're just telling someone and you're just sharing, like knowing what your objective is or what you're trying to get out of it is really important, and I think again, I think the more work you do on yourself, the easier it is to like figure out what you want externally. You know, why do I get? Sylvania is where I'm away for my friends, right, it's because something triggers that I'm thinking about them and that's why I like giving gifts. It's really not about the gifts for me, it's like I like people to know that wherever I am in my world, right, that something made me think of them. You know, like, and so how can I?

Speaker 2: 42:24

But that's how I like to give out, right, and I'm not sure, though, that it means the same for me coming in, you know, and so figuring out that, like, I'm not sure it would matter to me if you went away and you didn't get it for me, but for me it's one of the ways I show it. So, like, is it something I give and need to receive, you know, over? Is it something I think? For me, more so, it would be like I'm someone who will always pick up the phone and you can vent and I will like listen to it and, you know, go all in on that loyalty, yeah. And then I call it and, like I'm bitching about, you know a post. I really want you to kind of see him. Like Janet, watch this with me a little bit. You know, like, exactly like. Know that I'm being irrational 100%, but like, join in on.

Speaker 3: 43:07

And I think that's like hard because sometimes, like I'm always that person, like I'll be so excited for you and I assume, because you see the way I'm reacting, you will pick up that you need to react that way to me. And again, I think it's like that assumption in that mind reading, that they are so involved in my texts that they can tell every time they share a good piece of news I'm always using all caps, exclamation points, like I'm assuming they recognize that and they don't do the same in return. Like that's just total, my reading, total assumption. Like that's not how it works.

Speaker 2: 43:36

Well, right, and because what we think is so obvious usually is like not so obvious like they could just. I mean, if you look at anything I text, people are like yeah, she just slams her hands on the keyboard.

Speaker 2: 43:46

fax I feel like but you know what I'm saying. Like, I feel like, and also when you're judging, I think we're all so hard on ourselves with internal narratives and negative self-talk that sometimes it's like, oh, we want to kind of like make an excuse or well, busy did that because of this. But I don't have to do that because I'm busy. I have kids. I have, you know, like we try to rationalize things that I think that don't align with our values or who we want to be as friends and stuff, and so that can definitely, I think, also being honest with yourself and being like you know what, if you've been a shitty friend, go ahead and like to accept person, like, hey, I've been a really shitty friend. I'm sorry I haven't had a lot of extra energy to invest in people, but I want you to know that, like, no matter what, I'm here for you, like that's, you know, like there's no shame in saying that and for me 100%.

Speaker 3: 44:34

I'd much rather have a friend be like hey, I'm so sorry I messed up, rather than just like ignoring my texts because they can't respond. Like they could just say hey, I'm sorry, I'll talk to you tomorrow. Like I have way too much stuff going on today. Like I would so much rather have somebody be over communicative than that blank text that like hey, like what's going on? Or that not return phone call or you know, especially if I'm like asking questions and they're just they can't answer them that day.

Speaker 2: 44:59

Like that's fine, let me know 100%, and I think that's what you know it comes down to with. These friendship breakups is like when you're evaluating and you're kind of going through the reflection part, like we do with everything in our lives. You know, what did I bring to this friendship that caused its breakdown? Where could I have been more clear about my wants, my needs, things that were important to me? Where could I have shared the burden of planning, reaching out so that it was a mutual thing and it didn't all fall on me, but then also giving the appropriate amount of like this person could have done something different too and making sure that you know we're not just taking that rumination of like oh we made a mistake, I did this and really beating ourselves up about it, but making sure that when we enter the next time the opportunity comes to reset expectations with any friend group or a new friend, we have a better starting point than the last.

Speaker 3: 45:59

Yeah, great point, that's awesome.

Speaker 2: 46:03

That'll get better. We'll be back next week with a brand new episode of You're Always Fine. Until then, mind your health. ["you're Fine"]. Seriously, you're fine. You're fine because you have the power to access your place of peace anytime you need it. However, if you get stuck, we're right at the palm of your hand to help. Check out our show notes for this week's source list, recommended content and cabana live group schedule. We'll catch you next week for a brand new episode of You're Always Fine. ["you're Fine"].